Sigh... what's with all the technical stupidity on certain forums now?

[cheat-master30]

Seriously, I swear I've seen a rise in two really bad forum usability/design mistakes which are just getting on my nerves. The first is the rise is 'you must have javascript enabled to view this site'. But the point is, where the hell is this in default vBulletin or Invision Power Board? Why are you making your site less usable by visitors than the default, when the vast majority of these sites would work completely fine without it and pretty much blocking all search bots and screen readers for no reason? It's like 1998 again or whatever in terms of design trend.

The second thing is the incredibly lazy idea of leaving the CSS code in the PAGE SOURCE of the pages. This adds like twice the amount of load time to each page and bandwidth usage, and it's not even that difficult to set one option and move it to a file where it can actually be cached by the visitor. This of course is worse in that most forums I've seen making this mistake have some of the most design and graphic intensive styles ever, and I know some which have had the CSS code THREE TIMES AS LENGTHY as the page source for the rest of the page, seemingly tripling their daily bandwidth for no good reason.

[Gio~Logist]

Blame it on global warming, seriously.

On a more serious note, i know exactly what you mean. However, it all comes down to demand. Javascript offers a variety of features to add to the user-end of your website (navigation, overall user interface, etc.)


http://www.yahoo.com/
http://www.cnn.com
http://www.mostlyanysuccessfulwebsite.com
Now all have browsing features, etc. in which JavaScript can bring to your website. After websites such as these offer such methods and such a technical-interface, it increases the demand. These are universal sites which offer universal interfaces. For this reason, a lot of websites are trying to grow off of their ideas/implementations.

[cheat-master30]

I have nothing against javascript. What I'm against is stuff like this:

86967

Note how it displays as a completely blank page with an error message with no Javascript? That's what stupid, and it's vBulletin as well, which by default does not do that.

[Lynne]

Wow, great (blank) site!

Regarding the CSS stylesheet issue, I have noticed that also. I'll go to help someone and view their page souce and scroll and scroll and scroll past the css. Not fun for me when my wrists are bothering me. In fact, there have been times I just say Forget It and don't help cuz I don't want to scroll through it all. Yeah, I'm a totally minority there, but still I have to wonder why?

[nexialys]

vBulletin 4.0 will have a CSS based style, will be an overload of CSS elements if people leave them in source-code.

[Digital Jedi]

Is it fair to call it techincal "stupidity" when it will take the average vB owner several years before he has even studied enough to know what your talking about? This stuff has to be learned, even studied. I'm willing to bet less then half of all web site owners even have the time to do that, and it will be unlikely they will ever have a reason to find out why. Stupidity implies you already know, you just choose to ignore it. Uninformed would be more accurate.

[nexialys]

the problem is not to know all these details but to "think to know"... they all think it is better to apply this and that, but they do not know, so they make errors... they think they know because some moronish apps are delivered to them to help them create their personal site (i mean, hum, *caugh* framers) and they apply it to their real good software... -- i even had some fights with clients who were soooooo informed of the web that they were asking to revert their site to a 1998 design because of Web2.0 ... because they know Web 2.0, they know all of it...

but they know nothing.

[Digital Jedi]

And what your describing is ignorance, not stupidity. I just don't think it's fair to malign people who can't know, as if they do know and are just choosing to ignore it.

[legionofangels]

Is it fair to call it techincal "stupidity" when it will take the average vB owner several years before he has even studied enough to know what your talking about? This stuff has to be learned, even studied. I'm willing to bet less then half of all web site owners even have the time to do that, and it will be unlikely they will ever have a reason to find out why. Stupidity implies you already know, you just choose to ignore it. Uninformed would be more accurate.

I'm sure our website has like 40 errors in coding or something. Yep, we don't know what we're doing.

Not too prideful to ask for help or fix whatever is messed up, it's just a case that can't pay for it at the moment, and as long as pages load relatively fast pssh, I don't care.

But I'm sure cheat master could examine our CSS and find some errors in it, as our site does not have an expert coder doing it. He went to school for it, graduated, but doesn't know CSS that well, he learned it while making the site.

It's not good ideas that make good sites, it's good coders. But take that compliment with a grain of salt because there are plenty of modifications released here that are unsecured, bugged and otherwise crap, amidst the one's that are done by experts.

[iogames]

If electricity comes from electrons? does morality comes from m*r*ns? :confused:

[ShawnV]

Maybe "we" left it there just to annoy you. :)

_V

[cheat-master30]

Is it fair to call it techincal "stupidity" when it will take the average vB owner several years before he has even studied enough to know what your talking about? This stuff has to be learned, even studied. I'm willing to bet less then half of all web site owners even have the time to do that, and it will be unlikely they will ever have a reason to find out why. Stupidity implies you already know, you just choose to ignore it. Uninformed would be more accurate.

It is when the javascript error mentioned involves editing the source code to make vBulletin worse than it is out of the box. Seriously, both Invision and vBulletin work without Javascript fine, these people actually added something, by deliberate bad choice or mistake that kills their board for those without javascript.

And I repeat, I'm not talking about HTML validation errors, only things that completely overbloat or kill the page for several visitors.

[Baldilocks]

Then how does one remove the CSS Style sheet from the Page Source? Instead of complaining about others, why not offer some friendly advice??

[masons_mum]

just having a guess...but wouldnt they create a new template for the CSS code and then code the forumhome to use that page. not sure though, am very amaetur! (hi baldilocks, its scotslass from TAZ :D)

[cheat-master30]

You'd go to vBulletin Options, and then Style and Language Settings and then Save CSS Stylesheets as files would be set to 'yes'.

[nexialys]

Then how does one remove the CSS Style sheet from the Page Source? Instead of complaining about others, why not offer some friendly advice??

actually, writing this means that you are unable to read the DOCS from vBulletin.com which you are invited to read when you purchase vBulletin.. and you did not check the vBulletin Options when you built your forum... or you would know. the setting is clear, well documented, and the only reason why it is not activated by default is that a lot of people do not give proper server permissions to their files when they upload their vBulletin...

the problem with the basic configurations that are not set properly for performance is that a lot of vBulletin owner do not know a single bit of stuff related to their servers... they host their forum on free hosting services, where the configs are usually crap... vBulletin is built with a lot of backward compatible systems to avoid corruption based on these free hosting services... the only pure solution for Jelsoft would be to host all the forums sold, so they would drop like 20 000 lines of code in the system.

[Gio~Logist]

actually, writing this means that you are unable to read the DOCS from vBulletin.com which you are invited to read when you purchase vBulletin.. and you did not check the vBulletin Options when you built your forum... or you would know. the setting is clear, well documented, and the only reason why it is not activated by default is that a lot of people do not give proper server permissions to their files when they upload their vBulletin...

the problem with the basic configurations that are not set properly for performance is that a lot of vBulletin owner do not know a single bit of stuff related to their servers... they host their forum on free hosting services, where the configs are usually crap... vBulletin is built with a lot of backward compatible systems to avoid corruption based on these free hosting services... the only pure solution for Jelsoft would be to host all the forums sold, so they would drop like 20 000 lines of code in the system.

Nexialys, you need to understand that everyone has their place on the net. Not every webmaster has the time or patience to read through documentation, so if by saying someone was "unable" to read, you are trying to deem them as "incapable", I'm sure it's an matter of prioritization more than anything.

I too am all for vbulletin webmasters educating themselves on the software, and to a certain extent it's expected/needed. However, i honestly do not expect every admin to read through the documentation. 1) Not every webmaster is "tech savvy", and can understand everything in vbulletin documentation. A lot of people would rather hire a programmer and focus more on their website. Most webmasters know what they want, and know how to get it, even if it means hiring someone. It's beyond unrealistic to expect every vb admin to go through docs.

How many people do you think even skip through basic things like instructions in products they purchase (setting up computers or home appliances, desks, etc.).. It's a common trait for us to overlook things :p

[cheat-master30]

Nexialys, you need to understand that everyone has their place on the net. Not every webmaster has the time or patience to read through documentation, so if by saying someone was "unable" to read, you are trying to deem them as "incapable", I'm sure it's an matter of prioritization more than anything.

I too am all for vbulletin webmasters educating themselves on the software, and to a certain extent it's expected/needed. However, i honestly do not expect every admin to read through the documentation. 1) Not every webmaster is "tech savvy", and can understand everything in vbulletin documentation. A lot of people would rather hire a programmer and focus more on their website. Most webmasters know what they want, and know how to get it, even if it means hiring someone. It's beyond unrealistic to expect every vb admin to go through docs.

How many people do you think even skip through basic things like instructions in products they purchase (setting up computers or home appliances, desks, etc.).. It's a common trait for us to overlook things :p

A few minor things though:

1. Many of the annoying things ARE due to stupidity. It's one thing to not know how to do something to improve a forum, which you can theoretically argue the CSS problem is. It's another to deliberately modify a board for the worse or use some really, really poorly coded modification that kills it for guests and search engines. Beside, it's kinda strange these people CAN use a premade style or make their own, but can't figure out simple things like storing CSS as files or making their board usable for most people.

[Baldilocks]

actually, writing this means that you are unable to read the DOCS from vBulletin.com which you are invited to read when you purchase vBulletin.. and you did not check the vBulletin Options when you built your forum... or you would know. the setting is clear, well documented, and the only reason why it is not activated by default is that a lot of people do not give proper server permissions to their files when they upload their vBulletin...

the problem with the basic configurations that are not set properly for performance is that a lot of vBulletin owner do not know a single bit of stuff related to their servers... they host their forum on free hosting services, where the configs are usually crap... vBulletin is built with a lot of backward compatible systems to avoid corruption based on these free hosting services... the only pure solution for Jelsoft would be to host all the forums sold, so they would drop like 20 000 lines of code in the system.

Actually I did change those settings and it screwed all of my styles. So I reverted it back to default. I wouldn't recommend anyone else doing it either without testing it first on a test board.

Most forum admins aren't going to study EVERY single line of the vBulletin manual. Nor do they care that someone is anal about having a neat page source code. Just because you have doesn't mean we all do. Some of us do have other, real concerns to deal with.

[masons_mum]

i have just been learning how to make my own themes and had NO idea about the storing of css files, or that it makes your page faster? stupidity? NO. I just didnt know, simple as. Surely stupidity IS only when you know about something and choose to ignore/implement it regardless, if you see what i am saying.

[Digital Jedi]

I read through the docs, and I didn't know vB had the option to store CSS as a file until just now. I guess that places me in the "stupid" category then...

[Baldilocks]

I read through the docs, and I didn't know vB had the option to store CSS as a file until just now. I guess that places me in the "stupid" category then...

Be careful with that, as I stated in my post above. When I did that I had to restore a backup.

[masons_mum]

i went ahead and did it, all went fine with 3.7.3...i did make sure i backed up first though.

[Lynne]

Make sure that if you go to store your CSS are files that you chmod the folder /clientscript/vbulletin_css to 777 or you will get screwed up pages.

[nexialys]

Be careful with that, as I stated in my post above. When I did that I had to restore a backup.
Ok, if you had to restore a backup when trying to store the css in file, you REALLY FickED UP your forum, because that setting have nothing to do with the database...

it's a VERY simple switch, and it breaks nothing in your data...

you reacted by restoring a backup while the only thing to do was to go back in the admincp and set that setting to NO... you reacted like someone who know nothing about the software, and this is why it is sad that Jelsoft is not providing more online support when a new admin buy the software...

you have to pass our driving test and have a license to buy a car... would be just plain simple to provide a little "HowTo and What Not" when you want to purchase a software...

[Digital Jedi]

you have to pass our driving test and have a license to buy a car... would be just plain simple to provide a little "HowTo and What Not" when you want to purchase a software...
Um, you get a license to drive so you don't cause harm to yourself and others with the three ton chunk of metal on wheels you now have complete control over. I don't think it quite compares to owning a vB license. No one's going to get hurt for drinking and admining, or half of vB owners would be in prison by now.

[nexialys]

Having a Tutorial read before installing the script on his site would have avoid the "restore a backup" due to wrong configuration... this is Hurt for me.

[Baldilocks]

Ok, if you had to restore a backup when trying to store the css in file, you REALLY FickED UP your forum, because that setting have nothing to do with the database...

it's a VERY simple switch, and it breaks nothing in your data...

you reacted by restoring a backup while the only thing to do was to go back in the admincp and set that setting to NO... you reacted like someone who know nothing about the software, and this is why it is sad that Jelsoft is not providing more online support when a new admin buy the software...

you have to pass our driving test and have a license to buy a car... would be just plain simple to provide a little "HowTo and What Not" when you want to purchase a software...

And you are acting like a troll.

I did go back and attempt to reverse it but to no avail. I am not the only who has had that problem.

Being and Admin is a learning experience. The best way to learn is by trial and error. Why burden Jelsoft with problems that you can ultimately solve on your own?

Don't ever presume to judge my level of understanding.

[nexialys]

And you are acting like a troll.
do not presume too much things about me, i think you do not know what is a troll if you apply that title to me... a troll is too small to even be my level... :cool:

[Baldilocks]

I wasn't presuming, I was observing.

[Lynne]

Baldilocks, did you make sure your folder was chmod to 777? Have you tried to put the css files back into the file system since your first try? Do you have a test site setup where you can try things first?

[wwolf27]

i have just been learning how to make my own themes and had NO idea about the storing of css files, or that it makes your page faster? stupidity? NO. I just didnt know, simple as. Surely stupidity IS only when you know about something and choose to ignore/implement it regardless, if you see what i am saying.
I have to agree 100%. What is frustrating about being new at all this still and not knowing even after going through the manual 100 x's plus is when you do go to ask a question or try to get a better understanding of how to do things better or more efficiently. Us "newbies" get treated like we are "stupid" and "insignificant", if we even get an answer or reply for our question.

If I and anyone else for the matter wasn't trying to at least give an effort to our site and/or sites, do you think we would come here just to get belittled by some and basically told we are "stupid" and/or "morons" I think not.

I would be extremely happy if someone would give me friendly advice saying, "Hey if you do this and this, can can run more efficiently." Please don't misunderstand me I am only referring to a handful of people. Everyone that has been doing this stuff for years and years, you all don't understand that all this can be very overwhelming and all we are trying to do is understand and get some guidance from those with a lot more knowledge than us. We aren't trying to ruin your day and we sure as heck aren't coming here because we have nothing else better to do with our day but to "bug" you.
~~wwolf27 "newbie"

[nexialys]

I would be extremely happy if someone would give me friendly advice saying, "Hey if you do this and this, can can run more efficiently."
This is part of what you have to claim from Jelsoft at vb.com, because it is there that you received the software, and it is there that you can have all the support for the installation, configuration and management of the software...

if you come on vb.org with the goal to ask about how to deal with your forum, that's not the place... this is the site for coders and clients who are willing to expand what they already have in hands... this is part of why some guys here are brutes against newbies who are asking basic configuration questions... you step ahead without knowing the base of your own site, and this is illogical.

it's the same as if you are 5 and want to learn how to make a brain surgery... you will have to learn to read first...then go all the way with 20 years of studies... you can't start with the last step.

[cheat-master30]

I have to agree 100%. What is frustrating about being new at all this still and not knowing even after going through the manual 100 x's plus is when you do go to ask a question or try to get a better understanding of how to do things better or more efficiently. Us "newbies" get treated like we are "stupid" and "insignificant", if we even get an answer or reply for our question.

I'm not treating anyone like they're stupid. I was just stating things that annoy me, including one thing that some people have likely deliberately changed to be annoying (the javascript issue). I agree that the manual isn't too great, just like the board FAQ as supplied by default.


If I and anyone else for the matter wasn't trying to at least give an effort to our site and/or sites, do you think we would come here just to get belittled by some and basically told we are "stupid" and/or "morons" I think not.



I would be extremely happy if someone would give me friendly advice saying, "Hey if you do this and this, can can run more efficiently." Please don't misunderstand me I am only referring to a handful of people. Everyone that has been doing this stuff for years and years, you all don't understand that all this can be very overwhelming and all we are trying to do is understand and get some guidance from those with a lot more knowledge than us. We aren't trying to ruin your day and we sure as heck aren't coming here because we have nothing else better to do with our day but to "bug" you.
~~wwolf27 "newbie"

I wasn't saying anyone was annoying, just that it seems there's an annoying, ridiculous add on or modification being passed around that's ruining various message boards and displaying errors messages when javascript isn't allowed and it should be removed/avoided. As for the CSS issue... it's because of bandwidth, if it's not stored as files, bandwidth usage is pretty much doubled or tripled.

P.S. If you want some useful information, try some articles like these:

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=187596

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=55566

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=186447

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=168925

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=135917

Myself and others have wrote a lot of useful guides that can improve your forum, which might be useful to read (and probably more useful than the manual).

[SEOvB]

The failure isn't with requring javascript to view the site, the failure is NOT providing a version with no javascript.

[Digital Jedi]

This is part of what you have to claim from Jelsoft at vb.com, because it is there that you received the software, and it is there that you can have all the support for the installation, configuration and management of the software...

if you come on vb.org with the goal to ask about how to deal with your forum, that's not the place... this is the site for coders and clients who are willing to expand what they already have in hands... this is part of why some guys here are brutes against newbies who are asking basic configuration questions... you step ahead without knowing the base of your own site, and this is illogical.

it's the same as if you are 5 and want to learn how to make a brain surgery... you will have to learn to read first...then go all the way with 20 years of studies... you can't start with the last step.
I'd have to disagree with you there. Your insinuating that vB.org is a type of "coders only" or advanced level forum. If that where the case, I doubt they'd redirect everyone, no matter how basic their question, at vB.com to this site whenever they had a inquiry that required a modification. Even so, there's no excuse for being brutish, other then to be brutish.


The failure isn't with requring javascript to view the site, the failure is NOT providing a version with no javascript.
Or not providing a reason. Really, I don't see how this is any different then people who block IE users from browsing their site or people running Google Chrome. Whatever the conspiracy theories, people do it because they want to.

[nexialys]

I'd have to disagree with you there. Your insinuating that vB.org is a type of "coders only" or advanced level forum. If that where the case, I doubt they'd redirect everyone, no matter how basic their question, at vB.com to this site whenever they had a inquiry that required a modification. Even so, there's no excuse for being brutish, other then to be brutish.

i am to disagree in my turn... lol...

when the guys at vb.com are redirecting people on this site, it is not for support of the original script but for modifications... it is also said somewhere here that for support about the original script, refer to vb.com ...

a lot of visitors here register because they think it's the best place where to be supported, even if they have to register on both sites to be tagged as licensed.

i'm not saying that this site is for the elite.. you said it. i'm not telling either that we will never support people with basic questions... they usually get their answers, but when the "prompt" guys are replying, it usually is less than welcoming... a detail i hate myself because if you are not interested in helping or answering, why do so with frustration ?!... i usually report these answers when they are unpolite... ;)

[Baldilocks]

Baldilocks, did you make sure your folder was chmod to 777? Have you tried to put the css files back into the file system since your first try? Do you have a test site setup where you can try things first?

For some reason, once I upgraded to PHP 5.x and MySQL 5.x, it worked like a charm.

[wwolf27]

To nexialys, point taken and understood.

To cheat-master30, I apologize for one going off topic but after reading all the posts I lost track myself. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to post the links for me as well as others to read. Please know I was not specifically "calling" you out as saying we were "stupid" or "morons" I kinda got carried away with my post adn again I do apologize to everyone for that.

I am grateful for the information and I will use it.....read it!
Have a great weekend
~~wwolf27