enough is enough....people get ripped off!!

[logicuk]

Ok enough is enough something needs to be done about the way the looking to hire section works


i have been ripped off 3 times myself here and lost over $600


yesterday someone else also got ripped off - https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=176163


What are you going todo about this vBulletin staff???

logic

[Dismounted]

Well, in the forum description, it clearly says:
Before hiring please read the stickied threads in this forum.

Instead of saying "what are you going to do" how about suggesting what we COULD do.

[dtv100]

Well, in the forum description, it clearly says:


Instead of saying "what are you going to do" how about suggesting what we COULD do.
what about a feedback system that we can go to others profile and check score .
coders can opt in on a usergroup where they get feedback by buyers.
buyers opt in on a usergroup where they get feedback by coders.

when buyer post a job he can click some where to give job to a coder that accept job then he can leave feedback to coder and coder can leave feedback to buyer.

[Paul M]

What are you going todo about this vBulletin staff???

vbulletin staff do not run this site. Its run by volunteers, and at the moment we simply do not have time to write a custom feedback system.

Please refer to this information on member feedback ;

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=136844

[SCRIPT3R]

To anyone interested in hiring a coder from here, why not just ask for some references from here. I'm sure the legitimacy of the accounts could be somewhat verified rather easily... at least to some degree.

[edenx]

Hello.
Be careful with the user "SmileyR"
Read here: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=176163

--------------- Added 1213274407 at 1213274407 ---------------

Well, in the forum description, it clearly says:


Instead of saying "what are you going to do" how about suggesting what we COULD do.

Hello:
eBay and other auction systems do very well with user reputation and comments.

[Dismounted]

That has been suggested plenty of times - please see Paul's reply.

[Jase2]

Personally, I think the forum should be closed until a feedback system is made. I would of thought that you would ban the people who do this -- seems you don't. This will just lose you regular members, and without the regular members, this site would be NOTHING!

Why don't you use iTrader?

[Attilitus]

I think that a good suggestion is to have a feedback forum with the same general settings as exist in Paid Services. Each member can create their own thread to which only they can reply. The current sticky in Paid Services tells members to "do their homework" but it would be much easier for this to occur if there was a single location that the sticky could point towards. A simple search of a member's name would quickly determine whether or not they have a long history of deceit. (It would certainly hinder serial scammers.)

[nexialys]

read this, been there, done ...nothing.

read the stickies before posting... search the user profile before accepting a contract... i've seen a lot of ripped of members complaint about someone who had 3 or 5 posts on this forum with no release... they say "YES" to anything... their fault.

when you go buy a car, you go to your closest darkest place where they sell cars without any company name, or you start shopping at Ford, Chrysler and so on?!... if you are not able to shop for a coder, it's all your fault, there is a ton of comments on these forums about scammers...

[bitbender]

Folks, I have been writing code since most of you were a twinkle in your grandfather's eye ('77)

I have done hundreds of contracts, some free lance and others with firms. I too have been ripped off, not paid, given bad paychecks at xmas, the works. Two way street.

As with any thing, buyer beware. I never pay for it all up front, I ask for phases, and I only remit once I am satisfied my idea's are being represented in the code.

Given that I am an old dinosaur mainframe assembler guy, they have me managing two seperate staffs these days. These peeps are in India and Malaysia, and my fat arse is in America. These peeps are paid to follow specs and write code, build systems, etc. That's even a challenege, and I KNOW THESE GUYS- I go see them for a month twice a year! :D

My point here is to think thru what you want, and then how to break it into chunks and order the payment according to result. NEVER PAY all the coin up front - A retainer is fine, but it should not be more than 10% of the bid in any case.

Also, avoid an hourly rate, unless you really like tossing coin out the winder. Request a Fixed bid, and if it takes some time to find the right person.. be patient

[Boofo]

77? I have socks older than that. ;)

[bitbender]

77? I have socks older than that. ;)You notice I Didn't say "Which" century :D - I was there..with Hollerith :p

Any how, just remember, we are only as gullable as we allow ourselves to be. When we realize we been taken, we get all sorts of pissed off. Hindsight'll do that to a fellow...

Cheers, all

[smacklan]

77? I have socks older than that. ;)
I wondered where that smell in here was coming from :eek: Bob, I deleted your PM by accident..can you resend it?

--Resume rant about being ripped off--

[Lynne]

I feel like we just had this discussion. :D


The users on my site do trading a lot and you have good trader and bad traders. So, we have a Good & Bad Traders forum and ask that users start a thread using the format of "Good Trader: Username" or "Bad Trader: Username". If someone starts one of those threads about someone, we ask that they give some details or why they rate them Good or Bad. It works pretty well and is easily searchable.

[Dean C]

I agree, it's high time there was a user feedback system here. I'm proud to say I've only ever had one dispute out of dozens of clients, and that's when he refused to pay me for the work that I did. Reward those who do good work, and disgrace those who do bad work.

[nexialys]

the only problem i see with the actual situation is that the actions taken against scammers are always private... the guy can continue to scam outside the site, nobody will know... i've seen that lately... someone is posting a paid request, and a scammer who re-registered with a new username is answering the request via the email provided by the client... it's outside vb.org because there is no pm, no discussion online regarding the proposal...

having a note like "this user was banned because of scam", or anything, would be just enough so everybody know that he was tagged... i can say that 90% of the freelancer sites are doing it... don't know why vb.org would not be able to provide this... it is not because of privacy statement... but what privacy if someone can rip others via a false account...

the only way someone could be verified as a real person and not a scammer with multiple personalities is to permit the entire access to the paid request forum only to valid license owners... the guys can then track who this person is from their own clients database, and lock their access to the forum if they are tagged as scammer... multiple-personalities could not avoid this restriction because you can always be verified to check your situation...

anyway, this was suggested for the last 4 years i'm here, nothing was done, i suppose it's useless to start over again... even Paul is right,.. they do not have time to code such a verification system or anything...

[Princeton]

a feedback / rating system can be abused - it will only create new problems

the best form of promotion (or selling your services)...
is to act appropriate (whenever posting), release great products, write great articles, and offer support.

your actions dictate:
- Who you are.
- What type of person you are.
- How good you work with others.

once you start doing this employers/buyers will start contacting you

TIP:
Large employers are often lurking in these forums - looking for qualified personnel. The actions you take here can make a difference in your life. By standing out, you will start getting offers too good to pass.

[nexialys]

Princeton, this is a good demonstration of job ads, but you forget something... nobody here can provide a portfolio or curriculum in their profile... if you think it's a good place to promote ourselves, why don't you add some userfields to let the guys list their capabilities ?!

[parash]

The person who hires should be able to Keep Note on the users Profile....about the work..as feedback..so the one who hire can go to the person's profile and read it..

that will be easy to count on people before they get ripped off easily...

[aceofspades]

A feedback system is exactly what is needed, i cant believe it hasn't already been integrated tbh.

[iogames]

Escrow?

[Dean C]

a feedback / rating system can be abused - it will only create new problems

the best form of promotion (or selling your services)...
is to act appropriate (whenever posting), release great products, write great articles, and offer support.

your actions dictate:
- Who you are.
- What type of person you are.
- How good you work with others.

once you start doing this employers/buyers will start contacting you


TIP:
Large employers are often lurking in these forums - looking for qualified personnel. The actions you take here can make a difference in your life. By standing out, you will start getting offers too good to pass.

You are totally missing the point of the thread poster. It's the coders that are the problem in this instance. I have no problems getting work, and I'm sure most of the experienced coders around here are the same, as you point out. Good coders tend to attract good buyers, so I don't have the problem with them either.

The problem is with the bad apples within the community. Yes, a feedback system can be abused with inaccurate feedback placed, but you have the same thing on ebay and amazon marketplace. Why not make such a feedback system opt-in. Bad coders would soon disable it and have no feedback on which to base their experience, and good coders can disable it if they feel it's being abused for whatever reason. I think it's also important to do as ebay does and let the person to reply to feedback they recieve, but only once.

[bitbender]

is to act appropriate (whenever posting), release great products, write great articles, and offer support.

your actions dictate:
- Who you are.
- What type of person you are.
- How good you work with others.



Folk, I have a prortfolio of efforts I have built over the years. As the admin said. DO great work, write GREAT articles and DOCUMENTATION that is better than your mods, and you can't help but do well. I can substantiate any skill I wish to sell to a prospective client. But there is one thing I will not do, and that is sell them something I KNOW I can't do with a professional level of quality.

I work for a large outsourcer, and I train two teams folks overseas to be mainframe systems engineers (yea, go ahead, laugh at the dinosaur :) ) . The quote above is very similar to their objectives in their job descriptions. And I insist they have the best customer service and integrity attributes possible.

So, heed that fella, he speaks with straightened tounge :up:

[iogames]

I use Guru.com with excellent results! 10/10
here in vB.org 0/6 :(

[parash]

I use Guru.com with excellent results! 10/10
here in vB.org 0/6 :(

I guess vb.org and guru.com are made with two different purpose...vbulletin is only a support site .....and for paid req section it have clear rules...people dont read them....instead of it vbulletin should apply simple feedback from each hiring persons...about the person they pickk..

[legionofangels]

a feedback / rating system can be abused - it will only create new problems


Ok this is just wrong. Not IF the Rating system tracks the IP of the person who left the rating.

Then you can find them in the ACP and basically investigate the issue.

Users under 25 posts here should be fully excluded from rating and even using Paid Requests Services section, shouldn't even be able to view it, that's how people get scammed and how people rip people off.

Saying the ratings can be abused is kind of off as well, considering that the Mods/Add ons here are rated by hundreds/thousands of members, and they generally are 4 to 5 star. So one bad rating, is not going to affect a great coder.

EDIT - put the rating system on the users profiles page. It can be done in 5 minutes. It's called, they don't want to do it, that is the issue.

[Attilitus]

I can understand why they wouldn't want to create a rating system. However, I think that a feedback forum is more than reasonable. Especially when you consider that their solution right now is to promote user's to "update" their service request thread with their feedback of a coder.

It makes sense to have a separate forum for feedback to make it more transparent to new buyers where they ought to investigate the reputation of coders.

Such a solution would be easier, rather than more difficult to moderate. Afterall, it is easier to monitor user feedback when it is in a feedback forum than when it is randomly scattered about in the paid-service request forum.

[legionofangels]

That's fine. Just have the threads be the very User Name of the Coder

like

Attilitus

Psionic Vision

Boofo

and let user's reply to there threads with feedback, and use the Thread Rating System as a rating of the coder.

If someone gets a reply from someone they didn't work with, they contact the mod of that forum and state, I did not do work for this client, etc. Please remove there post and rating if possible.

Again, if Thread Rating, or Coder Rating gets abused on this site, then so are the Ratings for every hack that has been on this site for the past X years.

[Boofo]

Since I don't code for hire, that doesn't apply to me as I don't want to get a bad rep from someone who might be undesirable to work for in the first place. My rep is bad enough as it is.

And why in the hell am I third on the list?! Let's be using the DESC variable. Discrimination due to age is illegal, you know. :D

[legionofangels]

Since I don't code for hire, that doesn't apply to me as I don't want to get a bad rep from someone who might be undesirable to work for in the first place. My rep is bad enough as it is.

And why in the hell am I third on the list?! Let's be using the DESC variable. Discrimination due to age is illegal, you know. :D

Well if you code for free then, it's too bad we're not good acquaintances.

Durr...example. :)

New List

Boofo

Cyb

Paul who? lol

[Boofo]

Yeah, I get that alot, lately. I've had to lean how to code while doing the backstroke these past few days. ;)

[dtv100]

if you guys think feedback system can be abuse give us a example maybe we can find solutions.
also staff say is too busy to create such hack .what about someone else create it and post it here would you guys use it ?

[logicuk]

nah the new vbulletin owners are happy to watch us sit here and get ripped off

[Marco van Herwaarden]

nah the new vbulletin owners are happy to watch us sit here and get ripped off
Please don't start with such insinuations. vBulletin.org policies are decided on by the vB.org staff. Jelsoft does provide us with assistence in the form of server space etc, but does not make our rules and policies. IB (the new owners you refer to) have nothing to do with how vB.org is operated.

Insinuating that IB "happy to watch us sit here and get ripped off" don't make any sense.

[Dean C]

At the end of the day the thing that's stopping the staff here from wanting to do this is because of the disputes that will arise over bad rep. They don't have time to investigate that that is understandable. That is why I suggested making the feedback system opt-in.

[Jase2]

...Or just close it until you have a feed-back system. People are just signing up in order to SCAM people. Who says they have to make one? There is iTrader, you know -- what's stopping you use that?

[logicuk]

...Or just close it until you have a feed-back system. People are just signing up in order to SCAM people. Who says they have to make one? There is iTrader, you know -- what's stopping you use that?

Amen

[King Kovifor]

...Or just close it until you have a feed-back system. People are just signing up in order to SCAM people. Who says they have to make one? There is iTrader, you know -- what's stopping you use that?

Closing the forum would remove the ability for members to get the help they need for their forum. As I see it, that is in no way a viable option, and looking at how the administration had handled it, I would say they agree.

[nexialys]

Closing the forum would remove the ability for members to get the help they need for their forum. As I see it, that is in no way a viable option, and looking at how the administration had handled it, I would say they agree.

in the same way we can tell that opening that forum was one of the big errors here. it caused the coders to wait for people to post in that forum instead of the not-paid requests forum... the coders now do not answer non-paid requests, because they know that the clients will someday post the same request in the paid requests because they need the feature they requested...

someone will say that it is not real... so get to the unpaid requests forum (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=112), and see by yourself... 95% of the requests are not even read... and if you can read properly, go to the paid request forum and check who is posting there... same people who have done it in the first place.

the reason why it's a complete mess on this site is that the Paid Request forum was created to answer -- requests... not to become a freelancer registry like on sitepoint.com or freelancers.com ... the goal was not to create a market of coders, so why exploit this to the max now that we have more and more scammers?

it was requested numerous of times that jelsoft support the creation of an external freelancer's site for vBulletin, but they refuse... a good point they have is that we can call for freelancers on sitepoint etc... they do not need to multiply the resources...

so my only suggestion here would be the same i do time after time... close the paid request forums, and open an external freelancer site... no need to be from the guys up there, someone here can do it...

it was done some times, but each time, as the project is started by non-professionals, it is not taken in consideration... always dropped and non-reputed. so the only alternative is simply to drop the paid requests forum... by that, you will stop scammers, and the coders will continue to answer unpaid requests... and have their own place to advertise their services, like right now anyway... most of the good coders i know here have their own portfolio somewhere...

[Jase2]

Closing the forum would remove the ability for members to get the help they need for their forum. As I see it, that is in no way a viable option, and looking at how the administration had handled it, I would say they agree.

How would it? They can post in the general vBulletin forum and seek help. The paid requests forum is just messed up, and scammers are signing up because they know they can get away with it. Like nexialys said, do you even see the coders who help in the "Paid Requests" forum helping in the non-paid request forum....NO! You don't! They are just waiting until they are told by one of you post in the "Paid Request" before they too accept the inevitable and get SCAMMED!

[nexialys]

i know that a lot of projects suggested in the not-paid requests are evaluated to be big projects that would cost a lot of time and efforts, but then again, there is already a lot of requests that are not requesting more than 2 minutes of code that are posted in the paid forum because everybody is lazy without cash at the end right now...

some people will always require that everything is coded for free, and we always have coders who require that they get paid for their codes... we can't avoid that... but as Princeton indicate, working on requests here and giving positive results will bring you a good reference, and a portfolio too... because i know that a lot of the actual releases on the Mods section are created due to requests here.... and most of the time, in the paid requests we have no possibility to release exclusive works...

[aceofspades]

With the feedback system, how would you stop a coder getting his friend to create a fake paid request thread, and then saying the coder completed the job perfectly when actually he did nothing at all?

That way a user could have perfect feedback and still rip people off.

[nexialys]

that's what we've seen lately though... someone asked all his small clients to post a review in the very old threads they created, blah blah...

[Dean C]

With the feedback system, how would you stop a coder getting his friend to create a fake paid request thread, and then saying the coder completed the job perfectly when actually he did nothing at all?

That way a user could have perfect feedback and still rip people off.

You can't, but it's better than nothing. The "Service Requests" forum was set up to aid members, and it does that for the large majority, but until something is done about the bad apples, this site will get a bad reputation.

[Boofo]

How long are we gonna beat this dead horse?

[Dismounted]

Someone will always complain. If we closed the forum - someone would complain. If we keep the forum open - someone will complain. If we implement a feedback system - someone will complain that no one hires them because they have no feedback.

We can't make everyone happy at the same time...

[nexialys]

close vBulletin.org, everybody at IPB will be happy...

see Hanson, everybody SOMEWHERE can be happy.. lol

[Marco van Herwaarden]

...Or just close it until you have a feed-back system. There already is a feedback system: Reply to your Paid Request thread with your experiences with the person who took the job.

If we would see that this feedback "system" is used on most Paid Requests threads, then we would start to think about adding a specialised feedback system in order to make it more user friendly. I really don't see why staff should implement something if members already don't use the tools that they already have.

It has to come from both sides, you can not expect staff to do everything for you. Start by showing us that people are really interested in a feedback system by using the tools already available first.

[bitbender]

And why in the hell am I third on the list?! Let's be using the DESC variable. Discrimination due to age is illegal, you know. :DDiscrimination due to girth size is much worse, mate :D

[Jase2]

There already is a feedback system: Reply to your Paid Request thread with your experiences with the person who took the job.

If we would see that this feedback "system" is used on most Paid Requests threads, then we would start to think about adding a specialised feedback system in order to make it more user friendly. I really don't see why staff should implement something if members already don't use the tools that they already have.

It has to come from both sides, you can not expect staff to do everything for you. Start by showing us that people are really interested in a feedback system by using the tools already available first.

Now you tell me who actually does that? Most the people who come here are NEW to the internet, let alone forums.

I'm not saying that staff should do something, you haven't even done anything, anyway -- apart from create the forum, which takes...10 seconds.

How much more *interest* do you want -- people are voicing their opinions here...and most are saying they want a feedback system. Read the thread..

Like I've said, there is iTrader....that will NOT take very long to install.

[nexialys]

Hum, Jase2, i think you missed the sempiternal discussions we had here for years about support, commercial ads, ranking and rating of coders... actually, Marco have done a lot in the last 2 years here about giving voice for you and the others who are releasing work here...

please refrain your attacks, they are not to be toward what the guys here are doing or not -- because you have no history here yet... you can discuss the topic without flaming anyone.

[KURTZ]

nice words Nexia ... :)

PS. we wanna Nexia 4 Mod! :D

[nexialys]

thanks Kurtz, but i personally refuse to be mod or admin on sites i do not own... lol

[Jase2]

nexialys it is called 'having your say'. I don't even know Marco, why would I personally insult him? Can't see anything in my post that his insulting him.

To be honest, I don't care if I have no "history" here....that is just totally out of context. Hmm....no-one has got a sense of humour like us brits lol.

I'll stay out of this one...anyway!

[nexialys]

I'm not saying that staff should do something, you haven't even done anything, anyway -- apart from create the forum, which takes...10 seconds.

This is intended to point to the staff, isn't it?!... and the one you were answering to was Marco... so indirectly pointing to Marco, as anyway he is the manager of this site... so he manage nothing if the guys did not do anything...

anyway, this part of judgement is related to your "no history"... you are new here and you judge for the last months you're here, but you know nothing of what have been done in the last 6 years... i've been here from the start, and i know that a lot was done for the coders, developpers, protecting people, protecting clients from scammers etc... (ok, sometimes it was not obvious until i hit the floor, but hey, i'm the big head here [below boofo for sure!])

[hobbybox]

You can always use a site like rentacoder.com - if you both sign up - the job can be down - you pay the fee to the site and they keep it in escrow - and they will not release funds until the results are good for both parties.

You can post the job - then have the person from this site join - work out the details and boom your all set.

[Dean C]

This is intended to point to the staff, isn't it?!... and the one you were answering to was Marco... so indirectly pointing to Marco, as anyway he is the manager of this site... so he manage nothing if the guys did not do anything...

anyway, this part of judgement is related to your "no history"... you are new here and you judge for the last months you're here, but you know nothing of what have been done in the last 6 years... i've been here from the start, and i know that a lot was done for the coders, developpers, protecting people, protecting clients from scammers etc... (ok, sometimes it was not obvious until i hit the floor, but hey, i'm the big head here [below boofo for sure!])

Well if you're going to play the "I've been in this community longer than you have" card, then let me put my cards down. I've been here before you, I've seen it from both the staffs view and the publics view, and other than trying to educate buyers/sellers within that forum, and occasionally intervening in disputes nothing has been done to stop this from happening. I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, because quite honestly short of a coder feedback system, I believe nothing else CAN or could have be/been done. And that's what we're suggesting here :)

[legionofangels]

There already is a feedback system: Reply to your Paid Request thread with your experiences with the person who took the job.

If we would see that this feedback "system" is used on most Paid Requests threads, then we would start to think about adding a specialised feedback system in order to make it more user friendly. I really don't see why staff should implement something if members already don't use the tools that they already have.

It has to come from both sides, you can not expect staff to do everything for you. Start by showing us that people are really interested in a feedback system by using the tools already available first.

There is no validity to this statement. Just because people don't use the system that is in place, which IS NOT A SYSTEM, it's posting in the same thread as your request. Does not mean that people won't use a rating system or feedback forum specifically.

I mean let's say I'm a new customer and want a new code, how in anyway do I search through the paid requests forums for ratings of the coders that were hired? There is no good way to search that. Therefore making the current "system" as you call it, useless.

[nexialys]

Well if you're going to play the "I've been in this community longer than you have" card, then let me put my cards down. I've been here before you[...]

yeah,. i did not play that game at all, i was just indicating that from someone just here for some month, he could not say "i've see all and i'm not happy"... and btw, do not look at the join date, i was coding hacks on vb 1.0rc

[parash]

what about those customers whom we take...and they start cusring us saying this that...when we dont want to do their works...due to their wrong behaviours...people should understand both sides too...most of them put one work while hiring and start adding more works later....

[iogames]

veeery simple!
Let's pay for this to be done, or for this thread to be closed :D

[dtv100]

veeery simple!
Let's pay for this to be done, or for this thread to be closed :D
what you mean like raising donations for get this done ?

[nexialys]

raising donations for big project is a mess... i faced that 2 years ago here on vb.org... a bunch of guys willing to pay in team for a webcam manager inside vb... they all paid their due, and i provided the script... and then, the project starter is gone crazy and started to threat for sueing everybody in the project because he wanted the exclusivity of the script....

that was hilarious... for 5 months they beated the hell of themselves just for exclusive rights... they lost it all, as Jelsoft released 3.5 and i refused to upgrade the script...because of the fight.

[rootnik]

Hello.
Be careful with the user "SmileyR"
Read here: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=176163

--------------- Added 1213274407 at 1213274407 ---------------



Hello:
eBay and other auction systems do very well with user reputation and comments.

Hi edenx,

Let me know what type of modules you need and I'll help you out for free when I get some time. It makes sick to think about somebody using this community to steal money from members.

Vbulletin Staff:

What are the requirements to be able to reply to a thread in the paid request forums? I tried to reply to his original thread and found out that I do not have permission.

[iogames]

Is nice to hear history :) I love the subject...

So the name of that hack/mod [the camera one? ;)]

p.s. I didn't mentioned raising, I meant: every major attempt to do something big got rip apart from many different point of views, as money rules most of our lives, is a method suggestion to settle this... but personally I don't think we need here a system like that, There are PHP/MySQL Coders for hire anywhere...

[dtv100]

Hi edenx,

Let me know what type of modules you need and I'll help you out for free when I get some time. It makes sick to think about somebody using this community to steal money from members.

Vbulletin Staff:

What are the requirements to be able to reply to a thread in the paid request forums? I tried to reply to his original thread and found out that I do not have permission.

I not staff but I think I know answer .
only thread starter can reply in that section .

[rootnik]

I not staff but I think I know answer .
only thread starter can reply in that section .

If that is true, thats one mistake (IMO) right there. It makes it hard for him to even prove that he got ripped off if there is not a post in the thread showing that a deal took place.

It is most likely done to prevent bidding wars, but this should be reconsidered. You are asking people to contact the thread starter in private. Allowing the deal to take place in a public forum may make some think twice before ripping people off.

[Boofo]

thanks Kurtz, but i personally refuse to be mod or admin on sites i do not own... lol

Unless they are honorary positions.

--------------- Added 1213486092 at 1213486092 ---------------

This is intended to point to the staff, isn't it?!... and the one you were answering to was Marco... so indirectly pointing to Marco, as anyway he is the manager of this site... so he manage nothing if the guys did not do anything...

anyway, this part of judgement is related to your "no history"... you are new here and you judge for the last months you're here, but you know nothing of what have been done in the last 6 years... i've been here from the start, and i know that a lot was done for the coders, developpers, protecting people, protecting clients from scammers etc... (ok, sometimes it was not obvious until i hit the floor, but hey, i'm the big head here [below boofo for sure!])

We have been here for a while and seen a lot of changes both good and bad. ;)

[Roms]

Vbulletin Staff:

What are the requirements to be able to reply to a thread in the paid request forums? I tried to reply to his original thread and found out that I do not have permission.

Only staff (and the thread starter) can reply to a thread in the paid request forums. If you are interested in bidding on a project you will need to contact the user via PM or email. :)

Thanks,
Roms

[legionofangels]

At the end of the day the thing that's stopping the staff here from wanting to do this is because of the disputes that will arise over bad rep. They don't have time to investigate that that is understandable. That is why I suggested making the feedback system opt-in.

I disagree with this completely. It isn't time, it's interest. They don't want to have to investigate anything. I mean you people must be under the assumption that even though a ton of projects are "listed" in there that all of them are filled, and coders are working here 24/7 on projects. The staff is not that busy here, and not only that, only rare times will complaints be brought up, and investigations have to be taken place.

I mean hell, here is an example of abuse. I got bad ratings on all of my graphics I submitted, ALL ON THE SAME NIGHT, after a thread was made asking for the "type" of graphics that I had submitted. I think it was done by the lone competing designer, and yeah, I think it was petty and trivial and never made a complaint to the staff. Why? Because I don't really care if other people like them or not, or give me bad ratings. I made them for free, they took a whole damn week, I looked at all of them on my board and I tend to be a pretty picky person, so I think they look alright. Anyways, I never made a complaint.

Pssh, so what I'm saying is after my mini-rant is that many people won't make complaints. But other things could be done. Like in the specific feedback forum, YOU CAN'T put a rating on a thread, until you've replied to it. OR we could require all users that post feedback of coders to supply an attachment of the code/product that was made IN APPLICATION, (( not hard code)) so that everyone can verify it's a valid job, AND that person has a right to give a rating to the coder.

The real issue is everyone is afraid of negative feedback, and negative feedback has to be allowed. I mean from guru, I got 8/10, 7/10 service, the one time we used a coder here we got good service 9/10. But still, if someone did not fulfill the details they should get what they deserve.

---------------------------------------------------------

In all honesty I cannot believe this place hasn't been sued yet. I mean you can stand behind the "we are not offering the service" all day long, but you allow for the interaction of prospective client/dealer relationships to foster and you dedicate a section of your website for this specific purpose. So to try and backslide and say "hey...it's not our responsibility or fault", are you sure? Because you allowed people to join and your site allowed a scammer to join, and you supplied the medium for which they could interact and in turn someone got ripped off.

It kind of makes you wonder, if it's not necessary for escrow, why do the other sites use it?

Even if vb.org never was sued, the other thing I'm surprised on is that no one has ever tried subpeoning for the IP address and information of a user they wish to take to court.

After all these years you think it would have happened by now.

A feedback system with ratings would actually protect this website in saying, "hey, the person viewed the user ratings of the coder, they made the decision to buy". So if someone has no ratings, pssh, its' completely the clients risk as this website has no information on the new coder applying for the job.

--------------------------------------

I disagree even further with the stupid rule that only the thread starter can respond. Not only open up competition on bidding, but jeez, when multiple admins come here, we can't even reply in our own requests because the other admin made the thread. It's annoying.

---------------------------------------

Lastly making a feedback forum, with a description, and rules would take 15 minutes flat.

With 15 more minutes on some specifications in the admin cp, or some very basic coding for advanced things like "require an attachment" or "require post before rating".

I think of VB.org as Unsecured at Use At Your Own Risk, and while I like the members here and ironically have had good luck with coders, due to the management of the system, this is my last resort for hiring a coder.

Don't be insulted, some of you are great, and while you might get hosed sometimes to, protecting and insuring your customers is number 1. Because without customers, you have no business.

Thanks for your time,

I'm done

Legion of Angels

[King Kovifor]

vBulletin.org isn't here as the site legal background that will protect our members in that way. As we have the forum, we allow our members to list jobs and find a coder. It is up to the client to do research (even I admit it is kind of hard as it stands) and chose the best coder. The business is taken into private as we are not here to manage the transaction.

The staff are run by volunteers who have "lives" outside of vBulletin.org and cannot devote 24/7 to this site. And just because you don't see staff actions, it doesn't mean we aren't busy.

[legionofangels]

The staff are run by volunteers who have "lives" outside of vBulletin.org and cannot devote 24/7 to this site. And just because you don't see staff actions, it doesn't mean we aren't busy.

Nice Edit.

I never said you weren't busy, I'm busy, I know what it's like to run a forum since i obviously do, so no need to try and patronize me.

However, the changes that I've suggested, whether the best choice or not, are fast and will work. It's not like it'd take 5 weeks to implement.

Hold a vote in the staff forum, thats what we do, 7 days on all decisions, then implement. Sitting around here discussing things for pages upon pages, and this ain't the first time we've had this discussion shows a complete lack of action by the staff.

And I'm sorry, but I don't care too overly much if you're volunteers or not, so are my staff members and I appreciate the work they give, but MOST if not ALL vote, while I and ONE other person implement. So granted there are few workhorses, but everyone is keen on voicing there opinion and the need to fix problems as they arise.

This is a problem, and one you people haven't fixed for quite some time. It's time to do something about it.

Thanks,

L E G I O N

[King Kovifor]

Yeah, thanks Roms. But staff discussions are held all the time. The administrators are all extremely busy as of right now. While I am not meaning to patronize you, but assumptions were made without solid proof, which cannot be obtained by you. But, if any system was implemented, I garuntee there would be a staff discussion.

Also, this site has what I would call "unique challenges" when implementing a feature. The best interest of the goal of this community needs addressed, as with most other sites I have been staff on, will implement features because they are wanted and won't neccessarily benefit the community as a whole.

[dtv100]

Yeah, thanks Roms. But staff discussions are held all the time. The administrators are all extremely busy as of right now. While I am not meaning to patronize you, but assumptions were made without solid proof, which cannot be obtained by you. But, if any system was implemented, I garuntee there would be a staff discussion.

Also, this site has what I would call "unique challenges" when implementing a feature. The best interest of the goal of this community needs addressed, as with most other sites I have been staff on, will implement features because they are wanted and won't neccessarily benefit the community as a whole.

quick question :

vbulletin.org staff have Discussions about members feedbacks post in this section ?

[Attilitus]

Just a quick question:

Why is it a problem to add a subforum to the Paid Service request forum called "Feedback" with the same permissions that currently exist in the Paid Service Request forum? A user can create a thread that only they and staff can reply to.

There seem to be two arguments against this kind of addition:

1) It would be too difficult to moderate/control.
2) It would undermine the site's roots as a free coding community.
3) User's currently do not update their service request threads, therefore there does not appear to be a desire to post feedback.

The first issue is true to a small extent. However, such a simple feedback forum would be only marginally more difficult to manage than the status quo in which feedback is mainly "hidden" in updated service threads.

The second issue is basically a mute point. The unpaid modification request forum was demoted to a subforum, and the Paid Service Request forum exists. Both of these details have undermined the purity of vBulletin's title as a free modification community. Like it or not, it is now also the best place to hire talented freelancers familiar with vBulletin.

The third issue is also valid to a certain extent. User's do not consistently update their threads with feedback. However, the underuse of feedback systems is fairly common on many sites in which trade/hiring occurs. Also having a clear location for user's feedback to be heard will promote, rather than discourage clients to "follow up" on their experiences.

Finally, the goal of the feedback forum is very conservative: stop serial scammers. Right now when clients post a paid service thread they have no way of easily checking to see if a coder is a known scammer. Having a feedback forum will make it absolutely clear where a client ought to check before hiring.

[Paul M]

I never said you weren't busy
Um, yes you did.

I disagree with this completely. It isn't time, it's interest. They don't want to have to investigate anything. I mean you people must be under the assumption that even though a ton of projects are "listed" in there that all of them are filled, and coders are working here 24/7 on projects. The staff is not that busy here, and not only that, only rare times will complaints be brought up, and investigations have to be taken place.

As previously said, the staff here are volunteers, who have busy lives (and other forums) away from vb.org.

I dont know how many times or different ways we can say this, but there are no plans at the moment to either close the SR forum, or add any sort of feedback system, and whatever you may think, this has been discussed endlessly by the staff behind the scenes.

[legionofangels]

Seriously, pride a little hurt because of a joke?

Give me a break.

I didn't say it unequivocally that you weren't busy at all, I said "not that busy". Nor do I care to hear this "who have lives outside of here"...for your information, I've heard that from like 10 years ago when I found my first forum and a discussion that touched on staff activity came up. Just so all of you staff here know WE ALL HAVE LIVES OUTSIDE HERE TO!

So it's not like you're telling us something we've never heard before or don't experience ourselves.

It's just amazing if time has been wasted endlessly discussing this, why nothing has been done. I mean considering the fact that in a few months now I've seen this same thread reoccur, and reoccur, and reoccur.

About time to do something, yes?

Oh there is no plans for a feedback forum, here is a hint, make a plan.

Admin CP > Forums & Moderators > Add New Child Forum > Parent Forum > Requests For Paid Services > Moderator = who cares

^ how's my plan look? I just timed it, it takes like 1 minute 43 seconds to do this whole thing.

[nexialys]

1:43... you're slow, LoA.... it takes me less than 20 seconds to create a new forum with moderator.. lol

[Boofo]

You're slowing down, Nex. ;)

[nexialys]

!ping

.. no answer...

[Paul M]

This is just going round in circles, the current situation has been made quite clear and isnt going to be changed anytime soon, there is little point in continuing these endless arguments. *Closed*