Scammers break vB coders reputation...

[nexialys]

In the last weeks, may i say months, i was faced with 17 clients on this site that were requesting paid services on the site.. these guys supposely accepted some other coders offers before mine because i always charge a higher rate and i do not ask to be paid before the code is provided in case i can't provide it... this is my security for the clients themselves... if i can't do it, i'm not paid.

these clients, in most case were back at me after 2 or 3 weeks asking me if i was able to answer their request because the first offer scammed them or abandonned them without any news... i was not available anymore due to a long term contract, but hey, they came back with feedback at least.

the problem with that is that again, some scammers are acting on this site, and nobody is protected, and usually, as it's a long period of time between the task taken and the scam appear, the guy is safe... and a lot of clients instead of updating their situations are just quitting the place and go search for coders in other places like sitepoint.com ...

this place is going down in the case of Paid Requests... mainly because of 2 or 3 scammers that always show their nose just when they are attacked... they are silent for months for their clients, but when someone talk about them, they show up, telling the more incredible stories...

so i would suggest something:

instead of banning these scammers, CLOSE the forum #30 ... Paid Services

let someone open a real professional site for services and more... or better, give the approval to become the vbulletin.net .... the "net" would mean "commercial on the net" for sure!

... scammers are always here, making profit on our back... because most of the time, people will cease asking here because they are ignored, abandonned or scammed... how many were giving feedback to tell they were happy of the services... most of them never come back...

[Jase2]

Now I see my post has been removed, care to share why? I was expressing my feelings, I haven't insulted anyone. I'm sorry, I just hate to see people getting scammed, it's not fair!

Regards Jason :)

[Guest190829]

Nexialys, you are a programmer and I'm sure you may have been on the opposite end of the stick (a client scamming a coder).

This is not a one sided debate here and it's a complex issue to handle (specifically in regards to individual complaints).

If you think that the staff here hasn't been acting on complaints, then you are sadly mistaken. Have you ever thought that maybe we do not publicize everyone who is banned here?

Everyone needs to understand that we are addressing this issue as best as we can and are still discussing what the best policy should be in regards to service requests.

At the end of the day, however, it's going to have the be the client who must be educated in making an informed decision on who to hire regardless of where the transaction is being made.

[Guest190829]

Now I see my post has been removed, care to share why? I was expressing my feelings, I haven't insulted anyone. I'm sorry, I just hate to see people getting scammed, it's not fair!

Regards Jason :)

I hate to see people getting scammed too, but I also hate to see people making arguments when they don't know the full side of the story. Your reason is in the deleted post. :)

[Jase2]

Closing it would be sad, because there are legit coders out there -- who really do want to help!

Regards Jason :)

[nexialys]

Hum, Danny, i'm not talking about the administration not making a thing... i know you are acting on these scammers when you can... not always easy to ban someone just because of one member complaining about bad service...

this is actually why i think this service have to be dropped... it was first intended to answer some people requesting professional jobs, but the more we see, the more we count scammers in our ranks, and even if you act on it, it is not your main focus,... you can't play the police all the time...

my solution is not to put the fault on your shoulders but instead to clear your shoulders of all these insinuations and accusations of non-action... if some other professional site is handling this as their main goal, i suppose there would be a more secure way to make deals for service paid... like escrow or others... but you can't filter all these paid requests via escrow, as it would break a lot of things here...

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Closing it would be sad, because there are legit coders out there -- who really do want to help!

i know a lot of vb.org coders who go at sitepoint.com to answer these paid requests... when you can help somewhere on the net, it is not complicated to open a new browser window and go help on another place...

my suggestion would be to have that kind of service tutored by the vbulletin community, instead of using sitepoint.com ...

[Lynne]

Have you considered having a forum for Good and Bad Clients and Coders? I have a similar forum on my site and it allows users to start a thread about either a good or bad trade, provide some background and then others can see what happened and decide if they want to deal with this trader. It's been a great resource for the users on our site.

[SEOvB]

i know a lot of vb.org coders who go at sitepoint.com to answer these paid requests... when you can help somewhere on the net, it is not complicated to open a new browser window and go help on another place...

my suggestion would be to have that kind of service tutored by the vbulletin community, instead of using sitepoint.com ...


Its just the pain in the arse to go to another site and scroll through all the vBulletin requests. Atleast here they are all in one place :D

[Guest190829]

Lol, yes sorry Nexialys - most of my post wasn't intended fully for you.

Your suggestion is certainly an option....

[nexialys]

Its just the pain in the arse to go to another site and scroll through all the vBulletin requests. Atleast here they are all in one place :D

it is a bigger pain to read someone say "vb coders are all scammers and shit" ... don't you think ?!

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Lol, yes sorry Nexialys - most of my post wasn't intended fully for you.
Your suggestion is certainly an option....
i did read between the lines Danny, i'm not stubborn.. lol... i'm ok with all of what you say usually!

and i know, this is an option that was debated not long ago when the last crisis in the commercial forum discussion occured... some guys are still waiting for an answer.. :)

[Guest190829]

it is a bigger pain to read someone say "vb coders are all scammers and shit" ... don't you think ?!

Well from your post, it sounds like you got the client in the end regardless?

So, I really don't see how an individual coder's reputation is being negatively affected. If anything, coders may have to prove more that they are serious and professional (which is hardly a bad thing, no?).

It's the client suffering in the end when they experience this.

[nexialys]

i usually get clients due to my clean reputation on all the products i developped, not because they were scammed by someone else... and usually, i'm not their last hope... i usually refuse to serve someone who got scammed here because they usually ask to lower the charges because their money is gone... and as i'm not a freelancer, i'm not accepting all the jobs just because i need to work.

the thing is not on my side or on the side of the coders who are ok, the problem is that one scammer could bring 10 clients to go elsewhere, so we see less persons posting here, but far more, we are all tagged as scammer in the near future, because the guys how answer requests at first are the ones to be chosen... 90% scammers... because they grab some clients, scam them, take a vacation, come back 3 months later and start again...

some guys here already asked if it was possible to start a commercial site where they would have the possibility to advertise their company... the other side is also requested.. a place where clients can rate the coders... a place where we can comment and be heard if positive or negative comments are given... here, people do not read any follow up of paid requests because they are not rating the coders... we do not see any tag beside coders name to indicate that they have 10 or 1000 satisfied clients...

a lot of features would be necessary to have a good paid-request forum, and you can't make it all... you do not need to explode your brain for that...

[Brandon Sheley]

I feel ya nexialys, I'm in the same boat as you.
I also charge more then most ppl, yet I don't ask for a payment until the work is done for the same reason you have.

I haven't been around the paid request section here in some time, I didn't know it was getting bad again.

Just remember, to the clients, if it's to good to be true, it prolly is!

[SEOvB]

the paid section is out of control here, do a good job and people don't bother leaving any positive or even neutral feedback, but if you screw them over they are posting 8 times in 2 days with new information about it pretty much non-stop.

Then my recent favorite was the one who scammed someone, then had previous people post how good he was almost 6 months to a year later, and then today its another "he scammed me post" quality entertainment.

I dont think the forum should be done away with as people need a place to find coders related to vBulletin and this is the best place for that. However without a better feedback system then yea its pretty useless.

[Boofo]

I have to agree with Nexia. This was a sore point a long time ago and doesn't seem to have gotten better. I never did think the paid request area was a good idea and mostly because of what Nexia wrote about. Too hard to police and make everyone happy. And also a playground for unscrupulous opportunists.

[Guest190829]

Please keep specific cases out of this discussion.

I'm going to say this once: the staff are the only members who can completely verify a member's status on this forum. Please don't make accusations unless you know all the details - and in some cases you won't ever have all the details.

Now please keep the topic on the Paid Requests Forum.

[G0F0RBR0KE]

I have an idea on how to improve the system. However, it's up to the vBulletin.org to add it or not.

The way it'll work is to have a new .php page. Who knows, maybe vbcoder.php or vbdesigner.php

How will the system work?

When a user is looking for a coder and/or designer, he'll have to submit a ticket. Those who applied will have the privilege to reply to his/her thread. However, those who didn't apply to be part of the vb coder or vb designer team wont' be able to read their thread. All they can do is create and view their own thread and hope to get someone work on their project.

Of course, when it comes to those who agree to do the work and the client isn't happy because he/she is now ignoring will be remove from the list and he/she will never able to help those who are willing to pay.

This is just an idea. ^^

[SEOvB]

I dont think that will work. How and who will figure out who is on this "team".

What is to be done, if someone completes the work, and no matter what the customer isn't satisified or they just want to leave a negative "feedback" then that coder can't do anything about it. After one comment are they removed from the "team", or are the left there?

Still requires to much moderation. A simple feedback system like itrader where + or - feedback is left, and a short comment. Then the coder will have a chance to reply to the feedback. But no matter what if there is more - comments then + comments no one will use that coder and they'll be little moderation needed of such a system

[G0F0RBR0KE]

I dont think that will work. How and who will figure out who is on this "team".

What is to be done, if someone completes the work, and no matter what the customer isn't satisified or they just want to leave a negative "feedback" then that coder can't do anything about it. After one comment are they removed from the "team", or are the left there?

Still requires to much moderation. A simple feedback system like itrader where + or - feedback is left, and a short comment. Then the coder will have a chance to reply to the feedback. But no matter what if there is more - comments then + comments no one will use that coder and they'll be little moderation needed of such a system

How will they find out? As I stated again, only those who applied will be able to post. Those who aren't part of the team won't be able too. If the customer isn't satisfy, they won't be remove from the team since he/she did the work. If he/she didn't work at it, he/she will be removed.

[nexialys]

the only way the clients will ever rate or rep the coders (and the opposite too, the coder can rate and rep the client)... is when we force people to pass thru an official channel like Escrow... "once you rate this coder's work, you will receive the official code"... "once you rate this client, you will be paid"...

this can't be done here!

[Lizard King]

I also agree that Jelsoft shall act on thismatter and prepare a new site just for paid requests. The new site may also include a paid directory for paid addon scripts which has been requested for a long time. This way Jelsoft will have the ability to promote their product better.

With the current structure it is impossible for users to track the coders or designers reputation at all. For example if i didn't read the following thread how the hack i can know about *** Link removed, no need for individual examples *** that guys reputation. I know that is not the first case for him either. I know that because i read paid requests section from time to time but most users donot. Thats why there must be some improvements within the current structure.

[Dismounted]

But if Jelsoft does decide to open such a site, there will be the same amount of "scammers" anyway. And more liability will be put on Jelsoft.

[nexialys]

but who ask that Jelsoft open that site?!... why not let this in the arms of some other persons ?... sponsorship or simply an approval would do it...

you say it all day long, vb.org is not from Jelsoft directly, but have the approval to be the official hackers site... we all know that this is false and it is now part of the ownership, but hey, it is easy to "not be"...

a commercial site with more than just reviews and rating is needed, rating is part of the protection.. most of the time, the people get scammed by someone who ask to be paid upfront... even just 20% is a loss when the job is not delivered... if the system is managed by Escrow or something else, there is no loss... do you have the habbit to loose 500$ in the street for no reason if your upfront is 20% of your project of 2500$ ?!... usually you have to pay even a little bit upfront for all the jobs you will ask for...

[Dismounted]

but who ask that Jelsoft open that site?!...
Lizard King did :rolleyes:

[nexialys]

Lizard King did :rolleyes:

This guy is strange... forgive him, he think he is a King.... rofl

on my side, i actually think that IB would have a good opportunity here, not Jelsoft... if the owners start a site of that kind, they would control a major part of the business instead of loosing it due to bad management... but hey, i'm just a web consultant.

[smacklan]

There's already a site like you are describing Nex, getafreelancer.com. Works well and you can find good vb coders there.

[nexialys]

yeah, i know about all these freelancers websites... the problem is that it is not representative of our community either... and these are not refered by Jelsoft... when you want a coder to do a task on your vB, here and at the .com would be able to say "go to vb-lancers.com" or something... you understand the point...? for now they go at vb.org, and get scammed most of the time if not simply abandonned... most of the requests in the paid services are not even answered...

on freelancers sites, i can say that most requests are filled... because every coder who go there is reading the requests.. that's the reason why they are there... on vb.org, their main reason is the mods section.

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hum, btw... do you know that most of the great coders who have quit in the last years are now independant and continue to code vBulletin hacks in private, commercially... if these guys have a place where to meet as commercial coders, they would be a benefit for the community -- we would know about their products...

instead, there is no actual commercial deal with Jelsoft for no reason, there is no place where to have a showroom or a directory, and that gives no point in them.. they would come back, with a real solution

[smacklan]

I agree with your position on this Nex, but I think you know Jelsoft will never officially support or recommend such a site or section on one of their sites. It never has made much sense to me because the cottage industry (coders and designers) that have enjoyed success due to vbulletin also provide value back to vbulletin making their product more marketable. I never check the paid request forum here anymore and haven't in a long time. I agree, it would probably be a good idea if it were to go away.

[nexialys]

Nexialys, you are a programmer and I'm sure you may have been on the opposite end of the stick (a client scamming a coder).

sure i was scammed on some small occasions, where clients refused to pay after i work for 10 or 20 hours... my result: i released the codes for free so they lost their exclusivity...

btw, i got scammed on a bigger project, everybody knows about it... i was scammed by my own team on PostNuke... guys with not much references, no real experience with big projects, and me with too much confidence on guys with big mouth... i've quit the project i started because it was a kindergarden.

also, this is why the Paid Requests are not good... when a client is scamming a coder, nobody knows... because the coder can't rate a client, and a coder can't comment in the client's request. i've tried already, trying to give a comment about a client who tried to scam me for 2000$... never my comment was posted in the request thread, because it was my opinion in stakes, not his... (and no i did not put the thread url because i know it will be deleted!)

[Guest210212002]

/me sighs.

Well if we can't bring up specifics, it's very hard to make a point. Since my post was deleted, I'll just say that I agree with Nexi and that I don't think the current system is working in the best interest of the memberbase here.

[nexialys]

don't sigh too much Chris, we can't point scammers because we are not the victims... and i think lasto made his point already, so adding more on his side would be useless, as this thread is not about scammers but about a better system somewhere else.

i could buy a vB license and start a real freelancers site, but it was done before without any result because Jelsoft was not supporting it... but i'd be ready to start one if i'd be supported.. :)

[Jase2]

nexialys, I'd also be happy to start a website, for requesting paid services ect. But, would Jelsoft risk such a thing?

Regards Jason :)

[lasto]

If the request section is to stay then i suggest that all Requests for paid service are made on the board and coders are allowed to reply instead of using the pm system.This keeps a record and the coder and client can discuss what they want doing and when that will be implemented and the cost.Now if something goes wrong and its not in the post then this board cant act on it,so it will encourage people to keep everything in the actual thread so it can be used at a later date should anything go wrong.

Im sure someone can make a hack - like this

say 5 people reply to your thread - you click the one you want and the rest are auto blocked from the thread and just you and the coder can discuss away.It wont stop things going wrong but it will leave a record of what was wanted etc and give both users some backup.

[Lizard King]

nexialys, I'd also be happy to start a website, for requesting paid services ect. But, would Jelsoft risk such a thing?

Regards Jason :)
We all can start a website on this matter however that is not a solution because there is no way Jelsoft will target customers who look for custom code to that site. Thats why i suggested Jelsoft to start a new site. They can start a new site and hire a team to manage the site. That way they will have more liability maybe but they will have more income also as a paid directory will bring good income and also they can get percentage of each sale going through site. They can also act similar like getfreelancer.com and allow members to purchase subscriptions etc...

[Jase2]

Yes, I agree Lizard King. Who wants to take this up with Jelsoft? However, we need a good, reliable team -- who are capable of managing the site.

Out of interest, who would be interested in managing a site for this particular purpose?

Regards Jason :)

[Guest190829]

Please keep other personal ventures and Jelsoft proposals outside this thread - this is about paid requests on this forum.

[nexialys]

yeah, Jase2, forget about any offer here, it is a discussion, not the plan for the destruction of the net... you can easily do that on your own...

[Lizard King]

Please keep other personal ventures and Jelsoft proposals outside this thread - this is about paid requests on this forum.
Danny sorry but why shall we leave Jelsoft outside of this site ? As we all know this site belongs to Jelsoft so they shall be involved in fixing the current situation or we shall at least can share our opinion.

[Jase2]

I have to agree. Jelsoft own this. If you wish to discuss the current state of affairs further, email: Ashley...I'm sure he will do something.

Regards Jason :)

[Guest190829]

I'm not saying we shall leave Jelsoft out of this. If people are interested in starting their own venture and proposing it to Jelsoft...well, that doesn't belong here.

If you are going to leave your feedback here then it should be for this site, no?

The staff is interested in your feedback on how we can improve this community - if anyone feels like creating a new community, I can't stop them but it has no business here.

[nexialys]

Hum, Danny, could you contact Kier so he can be informed of this thread and give his own comment?!... that maybe be the best solution now... :)

.. as he gave his comment when vB.ORG was created and supported by Jelsoft... because this site started somewhere you know, and it was not directly from vb.com ...

[Guest190829]

I'm not sure what Kier has to do with this?

Marco is the vBulletin.org coordinator. He is the liaison between our community and Jelsoft, and I already speak to him daily in IRC and usually over morning coffee.

Nexialys, if you have suggestions that go beyond vBulletin.org, that is fine but it doesn't belong here nor is it going to get the answers you are looking for. You can contact either Marco or Ashley privately too communicate any of your ideas.

I'm interested how we can improve this community. You gave insight that dropping the request forum will help this community. This is a fine suggestion as it directly involves this community.

[nexialys]

yes i think that the only situation possible regarding the paid service would be to drop the actual system/forum because there is more harm than goods... and with the references i received lately (the last 8 to 10 months), i can tell you that most of the people that came to my business now refuse to go to vb.org for their paid requests...

and the reason why i suggest that Kier would be informed is this forum:

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=47

... make some searches in that forum, and you will see that 99% of the questions about modifications are answered by suggesting to post in vb.org for support on modifications... that means that a certain % of these requests will fall under the Paid Services...

even on vb.com, some guys i answered commercially by giving them support on hacks or installs are telling me that they will never post here because they know someone who got scammed, or they read the Paid Services and see that they are not answered...

the structure never changed, the situation never changed... and you loose your time explaining the rules, you always have some complaints to follow, etc... does that make sense?!

[Jase2]

I do agree with Danny on this one -- I think we should be emailing Ashley and see what he has to say. Kier is product manager, I don't think he'd have the final decision.

Regards Jason :)

[nexialys]

Kier, Ashley, Marco, whoever can have a commercial point of view is important for me...

Marco is my best, he knows about this thread, keep his comment for the best moment so he will be able to knock me off for good.. lol

[Jase2]

Yes, it would be nice. nexialys, why don't you drop Ashley an email -- you never know he may like the idea!

Regards Jason :)

[Lizard King]

I'm not saying we shall leave Jelsoft out of this. If people are interested in starting their own venture and proposing it to Jelsoft...well, that doesn't belong here.

If you are going to leave your feedback here then it should be for this site, no?

The staff is interested in your feedback on how we can improve this community - if anyone feels like creating a new community, I can't stop them but it has no business here.
Don't get me wrong Danny. I am not planning a venture like that. As i think the current system needs to be improved , I am just sharing my opinion about what can be the best solution for the situation.

[Jase2]

What about a feedback system, something similar to the Itrader mod?

Regards Jason :)

[nexialys]

was suggested long time ago...

about all the possible solutions were suggested over the years... the situation is just waving... sometimes it is ok for all, something we have a rage of scammers, and that is going up and down...

the main point here is that this site is based on coders work... and the more we see, the more our reputation is broken... there was also some discussions about the quality of the work released here lately... that is a direct effect of the scammers and the paid services... we see more paid requests because nobody answer free requests... we would have a better answer of the free requests if the paid service forum is closed... and we would have more releases in the hacks also...

[Lynne]

What about a feedback system, something similar to the Itrader mod?

Regards Jason :)
I do think some sort of feedback system would help out here. That way, when someone gets contacted about doing the job, they can look and see what sort of feedback that coder has gotten. But, the feedback should be limited to the clients that posted about doing the job here, otherwise anyone could give feedback.

[legionofangels]

For coding things I'm definitely thankful and appreciative for the work and the time spent. When we ran into our first code that we needed to get made that was beyond our knowledge, we tried here out of curiosity.

I got one interested person, and they didn't have time to do it, or didn't seem interested too much. No strike against the coders here, but I think we had something pretty complicated and we needed someone with a fair amount of experience, perhaps multi types of code or years of experience. Not knowing how to create the code ourselves, obviously we have no gauge for really how complicated it was.

We spent $700 on the code we purchased. But again, I think the price was reflective of the complexity and the code pretty much came out as we wanted.

With all the add-ons here it's amazing that I don't think of this place as a coders place. I think of it as a modification community only, my thought process doesn't extend to coding experts. Even though it probably does have some great coders here, and obviously since there are many great add ons and code changes. I guess mentality what I think when dealing with coding is, "go to a coding website" lolz.

If I use a coder I'll probably stick with guru.com or rentacoder looks good to but have not used.

Our experience on guru was great, I got 4 estimates from 300 to 1000, we didn't take the lowest price or the highest obviously. They use escrow so we basically put all the money in the pot and the deal was to release it in 4 increments at checkpoints of completion that we predetermined. I think it took a total of 2 weeks to complete the code, but we used a company that houses several employees so they probably weren't only working on our project. We did have 30 of them helping at one point for a completion test, but that took 10 minutes or so.

I dunno, I felt really comfortable with escrow, I think it's the best way to go. I like half down and half on completion but references of work done is huge. If you haven't done anything it's better to wait for payment until it's complete.

As far as the issue of scamming, I only post requests that I really want. So I'm certainly not a scammer. At the same time if you've done a bunch of work in the past I don't know if I agree with the concept of not doing half down and half on delivery as that ensures the coder that the buyer is serious and that you will get paid.

Paypal can work with disputes and guru can as well.

Upon completion we gave feedback ratings based upon our experience with the coder. It was generally good, but the timeline took longer than it should so we gave like a 4/5 stars. As some days of that 2 weeks they didn't even work on it.

Yeah, that's all I have to say.

[Jase2]

Yes, that would be good Lynne. But, as Danny said earlier, the client can easily scam a coder -- which is very annoying after all the work you've put in.

To solve that, what about having some kind of escrow account here, that way (with the feedback system) both the client and the coder are protected. What do you think?

Regards Jason :)

[nexialys]

Paypal can work with disputes and guru can as well.

sorry but this is a false statement... Guru is not dealing with disputes, Escrow is.. that is a service provider that deal with the entire process of buy/sell...

Paypal is not dealing with Coders disputes at all, and never will because it is never a "tangible object"... all the persons who had to face a scammer here and there with paypal were devaluated because Paypal does not support that kind of complaints...

[Lynne]

Yes, that would be good Lynne. But, as Danny said earlier, the client can easily scam a coder -- which is very annoying after all the work you've put in.

To solve that, what about having some kind of escrow account here, that way (with the feedback system) both the client and the coder are protected. What do you think?

Regards Jason :)
It's a good idea, however it would take quite a bit to implement.

It sounds like some of you are in touch with some coders who don't want to come to this site any longer because of the scammers. So, I guess I would wonder about whether putting all the work into redoing the forum is going to pay off by getting users to come back. If done right, it could be a tremendous asset to the community.

I'm a big fan of vb.com and vb.org. I have gone off and visited other vb sites, but to me vb.com and vb.org are kinda a community and I like the community. I feel like I'm going outside the community when I go to other sites. I know if I wanted to get something coded, I would feel most comfortable getting it done here. Although, after reading this thread, I must say I'd be a bit nervous!

The point being though, I think having a successful paid request forum would be a big asset to these two sites. If it has a bad reputation at the moment, then even if it isn't intending to, it does reflect on the whole community. So, I think if it's reflecting negatively, which it sounds like it is, then something should be done about it.

[nexialys]

Although, after reading this thread, I must say I'd be a bit nervous!

imagine the impact, you just read a thread among a lot of threads... on my side, i work on parenting forums all the time, and on other kind of sites too, and most of the admins i know are knot in rings or communities, and when one of them is scammed by "Scammer Not Polite", the information is spread largely... jut one event can be multiplied by 100 if the person post in public groups... and that's something i have seen a lot... i also seen a lot of the opposite, found my name and some others in these rings as a good person which we can discuss with a lot...

everything is possible... but changing the format here was debated so much times... each time we hear from a scammer or a coder who try to advertise his work, we start a new run... and it close as soon as a concensus is made...

[christian8a]

Good point about all this.
I do think is important at least to have like a iTrader type of reference.

If this is not safe for both, coders and clients, then this site can get really bad reputation.
In my site I allow sales, but they are all based on the iTrader, most of them wont buy if the other person doesnt have at least 1 good point.

Just my opinion

[legionofangels]

Paypal does work with disputes. Whether they work with code disputes or not I would not know, as I've never used a coder through paypal.

I said guru as in the overall site, whether they or the escrow department specifically or service that is external, I meant that it can be done through the guru service or an experience. Meaning I could hire a coder from guru, like I did, and if I had a problem the escrow service is right there to deal with problems. It's not like I have to search out a different company to dispute the issue.

Whether a new community or here is irrelevant, just use a similar setup like guru or rentacoder has for coders for hire and projects. We don't need to reinvent the wheel for something that works.

To clarify further on my previous statement, I would use a vB coder if it's specifically and ONLY vB related. But the full vBulletin product is made up of CSS, HTML, Javascript, and PHP. So if you list those as the requirements...assuming I'm not missing any, coders with experience in all those fields should be able to help you. Plus, most custom codes will use a few of those types of code, not all of them. The vBulletin forum and installation of a code is the part where a vB coder specifically would be handy.

[briansol]

Why doesn't this site run itrader or something similar???

[Dismounted]

Because it is not the focus of this site. vBulletin.org's primary objective is to encourage the sharing of modifications and ideas.

[Jase2]

It would only be good for the "Request for paid services" forum... Anywhere else and it's pretty much useless.

Regards Jason :)

[lasto]

Paypal does NOT work with disputes esp if they involve Tangible/Virtual Goods.You will most certainly lose your money if the other side says they have delivered on their side.

[Guest210212002]

Because it is not the focus of this site. vBulletin.org's primary objective is to encourage the sharing of modifications and ideas.

Not to be argumentative, but I don't think 99% of the sites running iTrader are focused around classifieds. I use iTrader, and the primary objective of my website is the discussion of guitars and music. I run iTrader as an added convenience in my classifieds area to protect my memberbase.

[Acers]

imagine the impact, you just read a thread among a lot of threads... on my side, i work on parenting forums all the time, and on other kind of sites too, and most of the admins i know are knot in rings or communities, and when one of them is scammed by "Scammer Not Polite", the information is spread largely... jut one event can be multiplied by 100 if the person post in public groups... and that's something i have seen a lot... i also seen a lot of the opposite, found my name and some others in these rings as a good person which we can discuss with a lot...

everything is possible... but changing the format here was debated so much times... each time we hear from a scammer or a coder who try to advertise his work, we start a new run... and it close as soon as a concensus is made...
While i agree nexia with most of the things, but i think its a bit unfair if the coders are blamed all the time also. Many clients that come here are an impatient lot. How many people who code are actually full time coders? Not many and most of the time the people who request service will expect the product delivered in a couple of days. Unless its your full time job, you can sometimes exceed your deadlines. Then the requests keep changing in the middle of the project(not everyone does it but quite a few do) If you refuse, you have a -ve rep coming. Now fact of life is that you usually won't get the +ve feedback always posted but if someone is unhappy he will be sure to post it(prime example is the web hosting business).
I think if you are talking here as a community, then realize that there might not be full time coders around, only those who do it when they have the time to code or when they want to code. Most of the people would be running their own websites, doing a day job and sometimes coding.
If you are looking for professional coders, full time ones, there are indeed plenty of freelance websites around. However then you are also restricting yourself to be answered by a few who will be a lot busier. It should be the clients responsibility to select the best deal he gets. Anywhere he gets it.
Because it is not the focus of this site. vBulletin.org's primary objective is to encourage the sharing of modifications and ideas.
Well that might indeed be true and thats great, but if you allow a user feedback in the paid requests(where the client can post a feedback on the work done) then in my opinion you can also allow those opinions to be posted in a central location where its easier to see them for the future clients if they select that coder/(or the other way round, that client's feedback to be seen by the coder). At the end of the day you do ask clients to search for the coder and his rep before you select him. Won't it be better to make the job easier by having the feedback(whoever does leave it) to be at a central place rather than user doing a forum search which might not reveal all the feedback(or any!). Such feedback display can be limited to certain sections only or only in the user profile. Just my opinion.

[lasto]

all feedback etc from the coder and the client should be in the same thread in the request section.No use of the PM system or Chat programs as this allows it to be taken off board and offers no protection to the client or the coder.Should anything go wrong then there is a record of both parties agreement.
Also it allows for both parties to come to a mutual agreement should anything go wrong as the thread can be reported and then the mods intervene to find the best solution to the problem..

[nexialys]

Well Still no resolution, [...] As of right now I will not be accepting anymore helps from anyoneon here, Ijust do not want to get screwed again.
This was posted this morning... in the paid requests, somewhere... -- i will not link because the coder involved have no reason to appear in this thread... i'm not talking about the coder itself here, i do not care... what i care is the person who will not come here again for the jobs to be done because of the lack of security in the system... you needed some proofs, you have some... and i did not ask for it.

[Princeton]

right now, closing the forum should not be an option (we cannot punish the mass just because of a few bad apples)

a lot of the "members" who are scammed do not even use the forum
a lot of the "members" who use the forum do not even leave a feedback
buyers need to be educated (it really is that simple)
it works both ways
coders get scammed; buyers get scammed
coder doesn't do their research on "buyer"
buyer doesn't do their research on "coder" again, you will inevitably get scammed if you do not do your research - would you give your car keys to a stranger?

With that said the best option would be to open a vbulletin.org sister site.

[nexialys]

With that said the best option would be to open a vbulletin.org sister site.

see, i'm right from the start... lol... some guys here told me that it was not a topic to be discussed on vb.org, and now YOU are telling the same thing... you will be warned for sure.. lol

[Guest210212002]

right now, closing the forum should not be an option (we cannot punish the mass just because of a few bad apples)

a lot of the "members" who are scammed do not even use the forum
a lot of the "members" who use the forum do not even leave a feedback
buyers need to be educated (it really is that simple)
it works both ways
coders get scammed; buyers get scammed
coder doesn't do their research on "buyer"
buyer doesn't do their research on "coder" again, you will inevitably get scammed if you do not do your research - would you give your car keys to a stranger?



Then it should be easier for both parties to do their research.

[AlphaMale85]

There should probably be a mod installed that all positive and negative feedback goes in a section of a user's profile.

[b00k]

Seems at times that the staff are not interested in helping the people being wronged.
I can list one scammer who's really Popular around here and thats the problem, he is still here scamming people.
New threads pop all the time about him and nothing is being done.

After all the scams going on, i think more people will start using services like odesk.com . The average Joe has no idea who to trust around here.

An itrader system would be perfect, the only way people know if someone is a scammer is to read the threads in the requested services.

If you get scammed, take your complaint off site and post it on scam.com , at least people are listening and talking about it there. A search of vbulletin over there will show you that people are getting scammed here.

[nexialys]

actually, scam.com is based on the idea that the scammer will never go to the site to explain himself... lately, a lot of supposed scammers were posting there to polute the scam reports, or even to explain with strange comments how they were not scamming...

adding only ratings or comments on scams is not the only problem... i'm refering to the abandon a lot of people are when posting their requests in the paid services... due to small footprints and low budgets, they are abandonned because they are unable to have what they want for the price they are ready to pay.. the more we have that kind of posts, the more the opinion is about to change... coders here are unable to answer these requests because they are not competent enough... that is not the case but it is the image given.

[lasto]

scam.com is the only platform at the moment to vent your frustration if you have been scammed.Its not the best solution,but it gives both parties the chance to reply as both can reply to the same thread and give each others side of the story.

[nexialys]

so if we start a sister-side for vb.org, we would need a forum to vent frustrations, we need iTrader-like system, we need a Jobs Ads system, maybe Escrow to manage transactions and disputes...

not complicated... can do that in 24h...

the problem is not the system to use, it is the responsability applied to the one in charge... Jelsoft is against that, we know because all the suggestions made in the past were refused globally... someone will have to face it with a good safety belt and a lawyer... and then, maybe then, Jelsoft would think to refer their clients to that site...

[lasto]

well to be fair we dont need that much.All we need is some common sense and for this board to review the facts when someone claims they been ripped off.If someone is reported for scamming or not paying then their access to the request section should be put on hold until someone has looked over it and decided what the outcome should be.

I still say that any correspondance between coder and client should be in a thread so then there can be no argument as to who is in the wrong.As threads are timestamped and if someone says `will be done in 2 weeks` then if 2 weeks passes and no word in the thread then its pretty obvious who is at fault.

[nexialys]

... and we can't say it can't be done easily... http://sitepoint.com is running 100% with vBulletin, and they are using the kind of technique you're refering to, lasto...

[bobster65]

I don't see why Macro couldn't put together a paid requests review committee consisting of a combination of Staff members and regular members to meet like once a month (or on the spot for an emergency) to discuss complaints/disputes within the Paid Services area of the site.

From what I gather and see: what has some people upset is the fact that disputes/complaints have been filed and yet those members that have complaints/disputes filed against are still part of this community and the clients feel like the staff doesn't care. Im not saying that the staff doesn't care, its a general observation that I see coming from other members.

Like Danny said tho, we don't know what the staff has said or done behind the scenes, so there MAY be cases of members being suspended or banned that we don't know about.

One thing for certain is there is a current war going on between some clients (which are members) & a certain member. The War is public (both here and on other sites) and as far as I am concerned, it looks bad for the entire community. Its flowing over from the requests forum into many threads, its taking up valuable staff time and its a deterence to concept of this site which is supposed to be a COMMUNITY of support, not a place to rip people off and cut people down.

IMHO, Members (both clients and coders/designers) in this community that purposely rip people off should have certain privs taken away (such as access to the paid request forum, PMs and possible ban depending on the severity of the circumstances)..

I am confident in Marco and his staff tho and I am sure they will come up with a solution that best works for this Community.

[Jase2]

Yes, I definitely believe in a sister site, but there would need to be a few moderators to keep control of the place. I would help wherever possible, as I like helping and hate to see people getting scammed; whether it's the buyer or the coder.

As I said in a previous post, we need to take this to someone like Ashley.

Regards Jason :)

[nexialys]

.. i personally think that the identification of banned users or rippers would help... if you do not go read the threads related to their threats, you never know.. but if you go see their profile, and if a tag is applied, you know if the member was banned or have bad reputation...

who knows exactly what came up with the recent scammers... were they banned or they just vanished because of any reason?... being banned by the administration is a situation we have to know.. .this indicate that the person was negative... if they just vanish, this may be a personal matter, we never know...

[Guest210212002]

I still say that any correspondance between coder and client should be in a thread so then there can be no argument as to who is in the wrong.As threads are timestamped and if someone says `will be done in 2 weeks` then if 2 weeks passes and no word in the thread then its pretty obvious who is at fault.

Agree completely.

[Farcaster]

I agree that user's need to research whom they are doing business with more carefully.
With the coming of vbulletin 3.7.0 and to make it easier, why not use the new profile comments and simply not allow members to manage messages on their own profiles. Clients and coders could leave brief feedback on each other's profiles. Disallow any protracted disputes in the profile comments by limiting feedback to one post by the other user and one response to negative feedback.

I do want to add that I have some (albeit limited) negative experiences with contracts I have done here, and while there is an avenue for the client to post about their experience on a specific job, the coder has limited recourse to respond. We do need some way for both parties to leave feedback in a consolidated and centralized way.

[legionofangels]

Agree completely.

I completely agree as well.

I understand for issues of privacy, if you don't want to publicly show code or what not. But still if you have the communication open, all parties can view the comments and you know who is liable in almost all instances, or who is at fault.

This is the only site I know of where they don't want commenting in the threads, and it makes no sense to me. But I didn't make the rules, so wouldn't know the reasoning behind it naturally.

I think though that when a job is going on, the only people on guru that can view the comments are the client and the coder, and the website owners obviously. Which kind of helps with the privacy issue as well since none of us could view the sections or discussions anyway.

[crkgb]

This is why I am struggling to find a coder with acceptable portfolio to review. ...

[SEOvB]

Yea i just ate a bill from someone here, I did work for him on his forums, and he said everything was great, and that was the last i heard from him so it definently goes both ways...

[winpro19]

I think it would be an amazing idea if you implement a system where:

1. Buyer/coder communicate, and the project is awarded to a certain coder. The price is decided.

2. The buyer "pays" the money, but it is stored in VBulletin's secured account or something, and it is not "released" until the coder finishes their work and the buyer agrees to release the money.
3. The communication should take place in a "private thread", however if there is a discrepancy in the end - if both parties agree, the thread can be viewed by a staff member. And for providing this safety feature/staff, VBulletin should get a certain amount of the $. (Like 2-3% or perhaps more)

Just my 2 cents.

[SEOvB]

the whole point of the system is having jelsoft/site staff as least involved as possible.

Many of the cases if people would have done a search, they'd find who scams and who doesnt, instead of blindly hiring people who seem best

[seanm07]

There should be a system like on ebay where the people have possitive rep and neggative

[Alfa1]

I wish there was an official vbulletin site for paid hacks and paid jobs. A site with member reputation and escrow service. I have been thinking of starting a site, just for the need of it, but my time is sparse.

[nexialys]

You are in the same situation as all the other guys here Alfa1, everybody wants one, but nobody have the time for it...

maybe if Jelsoft provide the approval for such a site, someone would be more willing to start it as it would be a guaranty of reliability...

[Alfa1]

Yes, I do feel that it would be best if Jelsoft would be involved to some degree. Just so that such a site would be administered in line with Jelsofts wishes.

[Digital Jedi]

I see iTrader has been mentioned a few times in this thread. Seems to me the most sensible a easily implemented solution.

[nexialys]

iTrader is a good solution, but not on THIS_SITE... you see...

[Digital Jedi]

iTrader is a good solution, but not on THIS_SITE... you see...
Urm, not really, no. :confused:

[tewage]

a buyer/sell rep system sounds good, but I don't like that ebay fell that means money being made has to be altered in order to pay the third wheel.

[iogames]

iTrader is a good solution, but not on THIS_SITE... you see...

Sorry to tell but it needs LEADERSHIP ;)
it's all it needs now

[nexialys]

leadership without a kingdom... hard...

[Jase2]

iTrader is a good solution, but not on THIS_SITE... you see...

I'm sorry, but I do not see that has a valid argument. For one, you're not a moderator so you have no say what is implemented here. Second, why isn't it a good solution for this site? What's so different about it? I personally think it would be a good solution.

[Brandon Sheley]

I don't think it's the job of the staff here to police the request work area.
The user themselves MUST to a little research, and not just take the offer because someone said they can do the job for 50$, when any respectable programer would charge 200$ for the same work.

Like I said in my first post.. "if it's to good to be true" then it probably is...

and no, we don't need itrader at the Org

[Digital Jedi]

I keep hearing that we don't need iTrader. But I've yet to hear any kind of argument, plausible or otherwise, as to why not.

[Jase2]

I don't think it's the job of the staff here to police the request work area.
The user themselves MUST to a little research, and not just take the offer because someone said they can do the job for 50$, when any respectable programer would charge 200$ for the same work.

Like I said in my first post.. "if it's to good to be true" then it probably is...

and no, we don't need itrader at the Org

Yeah, it's wise to do research on anything, it isn't rocket science. But that forum is just so cluttered, it makes it difficult.

And explain why iTrader wouldn't be good at vbulletin.org. I have yet to see a valid argument. Don't say something if you can't back it up with claims.

[nexialys]

it was discussed many times the reasons why vb.org does not need iTrader...

1- friends can rate anybody... there is no record system that implement itrader rating only for real clients that paid... on sites where Escrow is working, only clients that are into a process inside Escrow can rate coders. so just this point make iTrader useless.. you can ask your friends to rate you.

2- rating in these systems is based on opinions, not real facts... who can say with iTrader that the code is following vB protocol and is well written?! most clients do not even know what was installed in their site. they do not know if the coder have put a backdoor code or something, because the clients do not know vB code... and nobody can verify the work done.

3- rating coders by their contracts... already 90% of the clients in the paid services are not coming back when they have bad experience, so the bad coders would not be rated negatively anyway... same for positive ratings... most of the clients not coming back because they are satisfied and were coming on vb.org just for asking, not for discussions, so they do not care.

4- ... nothing else, i think that work with these arguements.

[Jase2]

The guy who wrote the hack runs a very successful forum, so I doubt he'd out his own forums at risk. Of course, that doesn't mean there's no faults and he's a brilliant coder. But surely it would of been removed if it was potentially dangerous?

so just this point make iTrader useless.. you can ask your friends to rate you.

Well, you can basically do that with any system, really. Same as eBay. But, it's better than nothing.

oh, and Jase2, you can shut it up with the "you are not a moderator here so... blah blah"... this forum is about ideas and discussions, not about my raking here... which will always be higher than yours anyway.

[Digital Jedi]

You guys sure to like to let your emotions get in the way of discussion. Anyway...

Nexialys, each of the points you've made can essentially be made about eBay's rating system. I can get my friends to rate me there as a good trader too. It's all opinion as to whether service was delivered satisfactory or not. And not everyone is going to rate me; good or bad. Those points alone don't discredit the essential value of eBay's rating system.
1- friends can rate anybody... there is no record system that implement itrader rating only for real clients that paid... on sites where Escrow is working, only clients that are into a process inside Escrow can rate coders. so just this point make iTrader useless.. you can ask your friends to rate you.

There's just one fundamental flaw in your logic there. Unless I've got a massive amount of friends who happen to be vBulletin license owners, this is not going to majorly tip positive ratings in my favor. Unless, of course, you were thinking that iTrader didn't have usergroup permissions.


2- rating in these systems is based on opinions, not real facts... who can say with iTrader that the code is following vB protocol and is well written?! most clients do not even know what was installed in their site. they do not know if the coder have put a backdoor code or something, because the clients do not know vB code... and nobody can verify the work done.

And this changes because we don't use iTrader? This is a potential danger right now, with no type of rating system to speak of. Only now, the only way we'd know about it is if the affected user posts a thread about the person, and no one's checking threads for reputability. At least with rating system, any red flags can be chronicled and explained. A flawed early warning system is better then no early warning system at all.

3- rating coders by their contracts... already 90% of the clients in the paid services are not coming back when they have bad experience, so the bad coders would not be rated negatively anyway... same for positive ratings... most of the clients not coming back because they are satisfied and were coming on vb.org just for asking, not for discussions, so they do not care.

Now, see, I have a problem understanding this one. How could you possible know that? I forget what they call that kind of argument, but your basically saying that they won't use a rating system based on how they don't use the non-existent system we have now. :confused:

[King Kovifor]

I'm sorry, but I do not see that has a valid argument. For one, you're not a moderator so you have no say what is implemented here. Second, why isn't it a good solution for this site? What's so different about it? I personally think it would be a good solution.

As a member, every opinion counts. Yes, it is ultimately up to the administrators of the staff to make these types of decisions on what is implemented, the users provide the suggestions. Nex's opinion was that iTrader was not a good solution to that, and that is perfectly fine.

Also, please do not go around telling members that they have no say in anything.

[Paul M]

iTrader has been discussed before. Its not going to be installed so there is nothing to be gained by people arguing or getting worked up about it. :)

[Digital Jedi]

I was just discussing it's merits, myself. For the record, I don't get worked up. Unless it involves Halle Berry, but that's not why you called...

[Jase2]

As a member, every opinion counts. Yes, it is ultimately up to the administrators of the staff to make these types of decisions on what is implemented, the users provide the suggestions. Nex's opinion was that iTrader was not a good solution to that, and that is perfectly fine.

Also, please do not go around telling members that they have no say in anything.

I agree, every opinion counts. I have not said anyone doesn't have a say, so don't put words in my mouth. An infraction? Absolutely ridiculous, I've had enough of this. I assume Nex has received one too? :rolleyes: He's always rattling on how he's higher ranked than me. Likewise, I aren't the slightest bothered, I'll leave you lot in peace, but drop another note to Ashley.

[King Kovifor]

I agree, every opinion counts. I have not said anyone doesn't have a say, so don't put words in my mouth. An infraction? Absolutely ridiculous, I've had enough of this. I assume Nex has received one too? :rolleyes: He's always rattling on how he's higher ranked than me. Likewise, I aren't the slightest bothered, I'll leave you lot in peace, but drop another note to Ashley.

Staff decisions / actions are not talked about in public. As Paul said there is no reason to debate, this thread is closed.