View Full Version : Miscellaneous Hacks - Simple Ad Management
MaestroX
12-22-2007, 10:00 PM
Removed
MaestroX
12-22-2007, 10:09 PM
Releases
1.0.0 - Initial release
whitetigergrowl
12-22-2007, 10:17 PM
Works great. Thanks!
glorify
12-22-2007, 10:55 PM
Great idea--I have specific colored Google ads per style--can I use them per style with this?
whitetigergrowl
12-22-2007, 10:57 PM
From what I see, no. But I could be wrong. Its a pretty basic, simple way of adding ads.
Floris
12-22-2007, 11:57 PM
Oh, I was expecting this to support rotating banners. Or show x impressions or y clicks, or track views.
MaestroX
12-23-2007, 12:06 AM
Great idea--I have specific colored Google ads per style--can I use them per style with this?
whitetigergrowl is correct, at this time this is not possible, though I may consider it for inclusion to a future release.
Oh, I was expecting this to support rotating banners. Or show x impressions or y clicks, or track views.
As the title suggests, this is a "simple" ad management system. I made it to expand the groundwork that has been included in 3.7 and offer an easier way for less experienced vBulletin admins to add advertisements to their forum without editing any templates. Based on feedback I will consider expanding and adding/improving features in the future :)
superthang
12-23-2007, 08:17 AM
please do :)
rotating is too good to pass out
thanks for the mod
peterska2
12-23-2007, 09:51 AM
again this is already in 3.7 by default and is just a modification for modifications sake
MaestroX
12-23-2007, 11:05 AM
again this is already in 3.7 by default and is just a modification for modifications sake
Please point me in the direction of where you can already do this in vBulletin 3.7 without having to edit the templates. I bet most users don't even know the existence of the new templates. I released this to help people.
Hornstar
12-23-2007, 11:17 AM
again this is already in 3.7 by default and is just a modification for modifications sake
Where is this then? I saw the hooks added, but did not see any place to easily add your ads up, where you can easily manage them all, without having to edit templates.
This mod may be in version 1, but I am sure if he continues to work on it, it may end up becoming very good.
Thanks for sharing.
imported_gc1
12-23-2007, 12:51 PM
Very Nice, thank you
ThePulse
12-23-2007, 08:27 PM
excellent and easy to use mod many thanks :D
again this is already in 3.7 by default and is just a modification for modifications sake
Perhaps the admincp xml is missing as I don't see how 3.7 manages advertisements. I do see the hook locations in the templates however.
youradhere4222
12-26-2007, 04:23 AM
Floris is right about their being a current template, but there's nothing wrong with this. It's simple, and it has an on/off switch without template edits.
ragtek
12-26-2007, 08:52 AM
hi
isn't this allready in 3.7?
3.7 is having "empty" templates where you can put your code into ;)
edit: sorry, that had been said here
GigaSb
12-27-2007, 06:54 PM
not working for me at VB3.7 b3
MaestroX
12-29-2007, 01:44 AM
not working for me at VB3.7 b3
What problems are you having? Does the menu appear in the vBulletin options?
R1lover
12-29-2007, 03:48 PM
Oh, I was expecting this to support rotating banners. Or show x impressions or y clicks, or track views.
That would be a big plus, anyone want to take on this task? I'll pay for it if you do.
Zaiaku
12-29-2007, 10:51 PM
Very nice and simple mod. No need to upload any files or edit any other templates. Very well thought out. Thank!
WoodiE
12-30-2007, 12:54 AM
again this is already in 3.7 by default and is just a modification for modifications sake
I love how someone people just walk into threads, post random junk as seen above without explaining how this is "default". I've been a long time owner of vBulletin, not once have I seen any kind of built in ad management nor did I see this new feature in the 3.7 release thread.
ragtek
12-30-2007, 12:57 AM
I love how someone people just walk into threads, post random junk as seen above without explaining how this is "default". I've been a long time owner of vBulletin, not once have I seen any kind of built in ad management nor did I see this new feature in the 3.7 release thread.
in 3.7 you have "ad-templates"
check: http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=252641&highlight=ad_footer_end for more info
WoodiE
12-30-2007, 01:33 AM
Great, least someone can post helpful info. Thanks!
glorify
12-30-2007, 04:21 AM
Another question--can I make a template called google, for example, then call it with $google in one of the settings?
energetic
12-30-2007, 08:48 AM
installed. very good :)
Slingblade61
12-30-2007, 12:47 PM
I love how someone people just walk into threads, post random junk as seen above without explaining how this is "default". I've been a long time owner of vBulletin, not once have I seen any kind of built in ad management nor did I see this new feature in the 3.7 release thread.
Indeed.
Without details of some sort we are forced to continue looking for a needle in a stack of needles. ;)
Zaiaku
12-30-2007, 01:22 PM
For everyone just saying this mod is already built in to 3.7, the author states that in the original post. This mod allows you to edit all the ad templates at 1 time, instad of having to go to each one. It just makes things faster for people.
Red Spider
01-01-2008, 04:26 AM
Thanks
Skipsoutdoors
01-02-2008, 03:01 AM
again this is already in 3.7 by default and is just a modification for modifications sake
I hate to +++++ but, the only reason I knew there were ad templates in vBulletin 3.7 is because I was looking at the source code for a displayed page trying to adjust a template. This sort of menu should be somewhere in the admincp under the heading "Ad Management" It should have been included in the package and shouldn't have been needed. I'm glad this guy wrote this.
A couple of suggestions for a good central ad manager:
1. It needs a rotator similar to Red Tyger's
2. It should have a couple custom fields to handle ads in a vBA CMPS module.
I used to run Red Tyger's but when I upgraded, I tried the new version of his, and he's went off the deep end. Simple is better. I don't have any use for something that gives users a place to put ads and earn money off my website. I mean seriously.
I like this, it's straight and to the point.
I haven't installed it yet, but I will and plan to tinker with it and see if I can figure out how to rotate banners with it.
Skip
cygy2k
01-02-2008, 03:15 PM
Another idea might be to have a place to exclude usergroups. I agree that this would be a great way to have a front-end to the newly built-in templates. Having a place to change the ads and exclude usergroups, along with rotating is all I and a lot of people are needing/looking for.
glorify
01-02-2008, 03:36 PM
Another idea might be to have a place to exclude usergroups. I agree that this would be a great way to have a front-end to the newly built-in templates. Having a place to change the ads and exclude usergroups, along with rotating is all I and a lot of people are needing/looking for.
Usergroups are simple, I use this and it should work with the hack no problem:
<if condition="in_array($bbuserinfo[usergroupid], array(4,7,2,5,1,3,26,8,24,25,23))>
<---!Ad Code--->
</if>
Just replace the red with the usergroups you want to see the ads.
Great! Saves me editing templates all the time..... :D
imported_gc1
01-11-2008, 11:49 AM
Nice Mod thank you
SuperDave71
01-11-2008, 12:28 PM
Hey guys,
I added this last night and it was was working wonderful. Now, when I try to open the plug-in option to add code, I can only see a WHITE screen in the admin panel. Nothing is there and I cannot delete it to reinstall. When I try to disable it, I can only see a white BLANK screen.
Any ideas?!
This shows up fine in the Vb options menu but I can't see anything. It's just a white BLANK window. Same thing when I try to uninstall.
It was working fine...now ...NOTHING.
HELP!
can this be manually uninstalled?
Thanks in advance,
-Dave
Lombardo
01-14-2008, 03:57 PM
does this work on 3.6.8?
MaestroX
01-14-2008, 10:05 PM
does this work on 3.6.8?
No, I'm afriad this modification relies on a 3.7 specific feature to work.
I added this last night and it was was working wonderful. Now, when I try to open the plug-in option to add code, I can only see a WHITE screen in the admin panel. Nothing is there and I cannot delete it to reinstall. When I try to disable it, I can only see a white BLANK screen.
Any ideas?!
Are you still having this problem? If so, send me a PM and I'll take a look for you.
Arsenalfan
01-27-2008, 12:40 PM
Thanks works great! :D
Greenwoodi
01-28-2008, 04:51 PM
3.7 beta 4, not work :(
can't get conditionals to work. glitchy.
Jase2
02-01-2008, 06:08 PM
Pointless as vB 3.7 already has this.
Regards Jason :)
TRBoxman
02-02-2008, 03:25 AM
I agree with Skip on the rotator.
Why go through the trouble of making ad templates and not giving an interface to configure them or a way for the ad content to rotate? Without the configurator or rotator it's a partial hack.
UltraFanatics
02-11-2008, 04:34 PM
This only works for me in "Ad After 1st Post"
Does anyone know why? Also does anyone know where the built in function is apparently?
lordtopcat
02-16-2008, 12:04 AM
Everyone who says this mod is pointless/not needed has something seriously wrong with their heads. Yes vBulletin includes this ad feature, but you have to go into the templates to add your adcode. This allows you to simply edit your ad code in the vBulletin opitions. For basic users, this is perfectly fine, as some people might not know how to edit templates. I would like to see all the people who are saying that this mod is useless make a mod like this of their own. MaestroX is spending his time making a quality and useful mod for the community and all he gets is abuse? I don't see why he should bother.
Everyone who is saying it should have x feature and y feature, screw your head on. The title says SIMPLE Ad management and is not meant to be as complex as Red Tyger's was. Simple ad management does not mean ads that rotate every x clicks and does this and does that. What would be the point of simple then? I'm sure RT will update his ad mod, but until then get used to the fact that this mod just supports SIMPLE tasks.
MaestroX, thank you for this mod, I for one appreciate it :)
*Clicks install and nominates for MoTM.
logicuk
02-16-2008, 12:10 AM
Well said lordtopcat i agree :)
towerhill
02-16-2008, 10:04 AM
Marked as Installed. Thanks for the mod.
RaceJunkie
02-19-2008, 05:57 PM
Great mod, Tagged for future. I would love to see the ability to control ads more like vB Ad Management (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=131150) If you ever do get the time to add more functionality to it I am sure it would be a great advantage over what vB already has installed. It don't look like Red Tyger is supporting his mod any longer so I think you would get lots of support for a better way to manage ads in vB
Jase2
02-19-2008, 06:11 PM
Again, this is already in vB 3.7 as default.
Regards Jason :)
nyunyu
02-19-2008, 06:46 PM
Hey Jase,
I think you should read the whole thread rather than posting TWICE condemning the author.
This mod is simply act as a enhancer to the existing option in vb3.7
people..people..when its not available, you keep asking, when its available, you keep complaining..
lordtopcat
02-19-2008, 07:59 PM
Jase, look at the number of installs: Installs: 78.
It is obviously a very useful mod if it has that many installs, wouldn't you say?
superthang
02-19-2008, 09:16 PM
is very useful people. the default in 3.7 you have to edit template bit which can be a pain if you like to keep changing your skin.
This out take out any guess and good for novice because it all there and just pate the code in.
dwdmguy
02-19-2008, 11:42 PM
Thank you for doing this. Working and Installed. (3.7 b4) One question please, my add, above footer, is not centering correctly. Advice please?
Thank you.
Jim O
03-01-2008, 02:25 PM
Thank you for doing this. Working and Installed. (3.7 b4) One question please, my add, above footer, is not centering correctly. Advice please?
Thank you.
Have you tried enclosing the ad script in <div align="center"> script text here </div> tags? That should do it.
Jim O
03-01-2008, 02:30 PM
Usergroups are simple, I use this and it should work with the hack no problem:
<if condition="in_array($bbuserinfo[usergroupid], array(4,7,2,5,1,3,26,8,24,25,23))>
<---!Ad Code--->
</if>
Just replace the red with the usergroups you want to see the ads.
Don't mean to be too technical but you're missing a closing quote and so the code does not work.
It should be:
<if condition="in_array($bbuserinfo[usergroupid], array(4,7,2,5,1,3,26,8,24,25,23))">
<---!Ad Code--->
</if>
vgjhav
03-02-2008, 03:37 PM
Alright. Installed it and it works.
One Problem.
How do i center or align my ads to integrate better?
On my site: VideoGathering.com They are all to the left. I have not changed anything in the google code and it is their basic code.
Thanks for the help.
MaestroX
03-02-2008, 05:38 PM
On my site: VideoGathering.com They are all to the left. I have not changed anything in the google code and it is their basic code.
I've you wrap your adsense code in div tags like so, this will solve your issue:
<div align="center">
adsens code here
</div>
Hope this helps :)
v12kid
03-08-2008, 02:43 AM
installed*
thanks
*edit- non of the ads are showing up? anything im missing?
Skipsoutdoors
03-12-2008, 04:14 AM
Everyone who says this mod is pointless/not needed has something seriously wrong with their heads. Yes vBulletin includes this ad feature, but you have to go into the templates to add your adcode. This allows you to simply edit your ad code in the vBulletin opitions. For basic users, this is perfectly fine, as some people might not know how to edit templates. I would like to see all the people who are saying that this mod is useless make a mod like this of their own. MaestroX is spending his time making a quality and useful mod for the community and all he gets is abuse? I don't see why he should bother.
Everyone who is saying it should have x feature and y feature, screw your head on. The title says SIMPLE Ad management and is not meant to be as complex as Red Tyger's was. Simple ad management does not mean ads that rotate every x clicks and does this and does that. What would be the point of simple then? I'm sure RT will update his ad mod, but until then get used to the fact that this mod just supports SIMPLE tasks.
MaestroX, thank you for this mod, I for one appreciate it :)
*Clicks install and nominates for MoTM.
I wasn't fussing at him, just a constructive suggestion. From time to time I have people who want to buy an add in excess of the pittance adnosense pays and I have some on the site that I have sold as 1/12 rotation. Since I can't currently rotate with the vB system and Red Tyger's original mod won't work with 3.7 and the new one is quite frankly full of BS, it was just something I threw out to solve a problem of my own.
Skip
Mythor
03-12-2008, 03:24 PM
Cheers for making this, MaestroX. I'm quite capable of editing the templates manually but frankly, I don't wanna! :)
This is an elegant solution to a problem that just shouldn't exist, so kudos to you.
Zaiaku
03-14-2008, 04:23 PM
Ok I just noticed something with by beta 6 install. I'm using this mod to place the ads in but when I went to look at the original ad templates I notice that the changes I made through the mod don't show in the original ad templates but do show in this mod, is this normal?
Also I uninstalled this on my 2nd forum and it totally removed all the default Ad Location Templates. Is there any way to fix this? If I made a template with the same name then the templates become uncached.
energetic
03-16-2008, 01:30 PM
After I have upgraded from v7beta3 to v7beta5, the ads disappeared ?
wingrider
03-16-2008, 05:04 PM
Same thing happened to me going to Beta 6. Does a new version number need to be added?
wingrider
03-16-2008, 05:20 PM
I removed the product then reinstalled and reconfigured. Now it works fine. Is there some way to prevent it from going away when vBulletin is upgraded? Thanks.
KURTZ
03-17-2008, 10:36 AM
installed! works like a charm ... :D
Beta 6 here :)
codershark
03-17-2008, 12:17 PM
I have installed it on 3.6.8 and 3.7 Beta 6 and I get only a empty settings page!
Dont work at both !
KURTZ
03-17-2008, 12:31 PM
I have installed it on 3.6.8 and 3.7 Beta 6 and I get only a empty settings page!
Dont work at both !
dude try to wait some minutes ...
Zaiaku
03-17-2008, 01:21 PM
Not sure what makes you think this would work with v3.6.8...
It does wok with v3.7 b6 I can confirm that as well as many others.
KURTZ
03-19-2008, 09:34 PM
after the upgrade to RC1 i needed to reinstall this hack ... it's normal? (cause the google ads are gone)
cygy2k
03-19-2008, 10:12 PM
after the upgrade to RC1 i needed to reinstall this hack ... it's normal? (cause the google ads are gone)
Uninstalling and reinstalling worked for me after the RC1 upgrade.
linkknight
03-22-2008, 01:46 AM
hey, Um, If i dont want to put ads in those text box, and instead write something, can I do that ?
Like, in one of the boxes i wrote "To Advertise here, Pm Knight", and that box was in front of "Ad code to be displayed below your navbar." but after saving nothing came below the navbar :S
linkknight
03-22-2008, 09:05 PM
Does this also work with 3.6.8 ? :S
snunhuck
04-02-2008, 11:12 PM
the ads are not showing up on any of my threads.
Jase2
04-02-2008, 11:16 PM
Sorry, but what is the actual point in this mod? I really cannot see the point, the ad locations in vB are easy to use. A mod for mods sake IMO.
Mythor
04-03-2008, 02:31 PM
Sorry, but what is the actual point in this mod? I really cannot see the point, the ad locations in vB are easy to use. A mod for mods sake IMO.It's been explained a number of times why this modification is needed and appreciated, including in direct response to you posting much the same thing multiple times in this thread.
Trolling for trolling's sake, IMO. We get it, you don't think it's necessary, fine, don't install it.
Your contributions to this thread are even more pointless than you claim this mod to be.
Does this also work with 3.6.8 ?It's 3.7 only as the ad location stuff was only added in then.
Marco van Herwaarden
04-03-2008, 04:12 PM
I do have 2 questions about this modifiction:
- Why are you distributing default templates in this modification? By doing this, you are overwriting the default vBulletin templates in the MASTER_STYLE, making it impossible to revert to the original templates, even after uninstalling this modification. Doing this is an absolute "Don't" in my view. On the other hand, this modification will probably stop working if any of the default templates used by this modification is ever updated in the default vBulletin package.
- Why are you processing only at the 'global_start' hook location? I strongly suggest to use more specific hook locations to avoid code being run on pages where they don't have any function. This is bad for performance.
toucan42
04-07-2008, 03:38 PM
I haven't installed this (and based on the post above will likely wait it out) but i wanted to weigh in on those posts trashing the idea as useless. I was thinking of writing something exactly just like this in order to not have to delve into the ad location templates whenever I wanted to manage new ad code. I think this is a useful concept. I would argue this is not a mod for mod sake, but rather a method for making ad location template edits centralized and easier to manage. Kudos to the developer for the idea. When/if the comments Marco brought up are taken care of I will install.
Forum Lover
04-14-2008, 10:07 AM
Now I got confused. Even if this is in 3.7 by default, where can I find those options? How can I use those?
ahem.. ahem.. newbie is here.
Marco van Herwaarden
04-16-2008, 12:24 PM
No comment/response to my questions?
KURTZ
04-16-2008, 03:18 PM
i've uninstalled this hack and now i've some uncached templates:
Uncached templates: ad_footer_end (1)
Uncached templates: ad_footer_start (1)
Uncached templates: ad_forumhome_afterforums (1)
Uncached templates: ad_header_end (1)
Uncached templates: ad_header_logo (1)
Uncached templates: ad_navbar_below (1)
how i can 'solve' this trouble?
KURTZ
04-22-2008, 06:46 AM
news?
siriuxs
04-23-2008, 08:34 PM
I have upgrade my forum to 3.7 RC 4 and now the banner is not visualized... why???
KURTZ
04-24-2008, 05:06 AM
I have upgrade my forum to 3.7 RC 4 and now the banner is not visualized... why???
you must reinstall the product ... anyway any news from Maestro? :mad:
towerhill
04-24-2008, 09:05 AM
Did a search for "uncached template" on the forum as I was wondering the same thing myself.
Check out: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=173660
It might help.
KURTZ
04-24-2008, 09:30 AM
Did a search for "uncached template" on the forum as I was wondering the same thing myself.
Check out: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=173660
It might help.
thx, so how we can fixed our trouble?
KURTZ
04-24-2008, 09:38 AM
just checked something ... it's really weird ...
after the update to RC4, just now i've uninstalled this hack, and activated the debug mode ... like you can see now i haven't any uncached templates ... BUT the templates of this hack still ' working' ...
budatalk
04-24-2008, 01:00 PM
Works like a charm! Many thanks!
IvyKeepMommy
04-25-2008, 01:13 PM
uninstalled since the template changes make the templates not revertible and are over written with each upgrade.
KURTZ
04-25-2008, 01:26 PM
Ivy have you fixed the templates or not?
bpat1434
04-28-2008, 07:07 PM
Installed on 3.7 RC3 and when I go to the simple ad management mod through the vB Options, I get the following in firebug:
uncaught exception: [Exception... "Component returned failure code: 0x805e000a [nsIDOMHTMLFormElement.submit]" nsresult: "0x805e000a (<unknown>)" location: "JS frame :: http://www.roundcubeforum.net/admincp/options.php?null=0 :: ondblclick :: line 1" data: no]
Line 0
After that, ALL vB admin options fail to work. It says it installs properly, so not sure what the issue is.
Also happens if I click the "edit" button after selecting the option. The only difference is the error. The double-click error happens cuz of the ajax; however, there is no content sent back to the browser if I get there without ajax.
So to summarize: Blank module page when I try to use this mod. The above error happens when I try to get to it via an AJAX double-click in the vB options menu. Any help would be appreciated.
MaestroX
04-30-2008, 09:17 PM
I do have 2 questions about this modifiction:
- Why are you distributing default templates in this modification? By doing this, you are overwriting the default vBulletin templates in the MASTER_STYLE, making it impossible to revert to the original templates, even after uninstalling this modification. Doing this is an absolute "Don't" in my view. On the other hand, this modification will probably stop working if any of the default templates used by this modification is ever updated in the default vBulletin package.
- Why are you processing only at the 'global_start' hook location? I strongly suggest to use more specific hook locations to avoid code being run on pages where they don't have any function. This is bad for performance.
This modification was made quickly at the request of a user back when vBulletin 3.7 was in its early release. I released it on the basis that it would help users, obviously erros have occured and I'm contemplating actions to revise this add-on when time allows it.
bpat1434
05-01-2008, 03:08 AM
I'm contemplating actions to revise this add-on
So does that mean you may drop this addon all together? I'd much rather be able to manage my ads through one interface (if I can ever get it working) rather than editing all of my styles (and I only have 4 right now).
KURTZ
05-02-2008, 08:01 PM
Maestro, what about the 'template' issue?
weitalia
05-08-2008, 08:28 AM
why this clause:
<if condition="$show['guest']">
ad_banner
</if>
doesn't work? (all user, registered include, see the banner)
bpat1434
05-08-2008, 01:24 PM
If you're using vB 3.7, I think it'd be better like this:
<if condition="is_member_of($bbuserinfo, 1)">
<!-- Advertisement -->
</if>
a2zwebs
05-08-2008, 01:34 PM
I'm having a bit of difficulty trying to upload this xml file...
I was trying to do it within the admincp style upload/download area.
Is that the right place?
I got this error
"Invalid File Specified"
weitalia
05-08-2008, 02:31 PM
If you're using vB 3.7, I think it'd be better like this:
<if condition="is_member_of($bbuserinfo, 1)">
<!-- Advertisement -->
</if>
it doesn't work, i see the code and also when i'm logged in
a2zwebs
05-09-2008, 03:37 PM
I'm having a bit of difficulty trying to upload this xml file...
I was trying to do it within the admincp style upload/download area.
Is that the right place?
I got this error
"Invalid File Specified"
Can someone guide me here? When I try to upload the xml (as stated above) i get the "Invalid File Specified" error.
a2zwebs
05-09-2008, 06:25 PM
Nevermind. I found it. :) In the Vbulletin Options menu.
rootnik
05-18-2008, 09:02 PM
Re: ucached Templates after uninstall.
People who are having problems with uncached templates need to ad new templates to their styles via the style manager.
These are templates that come with vbulletin, and the author foolishly overwrote them instead of using replacement methods. This is a bad habit to get into, because of the problem people are having right now. For each template that is overwritten it ads an extra database query after you uninstall because vbulletin is looking for a template that is not there.
I would no recommend installing this mod until the author corrects this problem.
nene94
05-21-2008, 06:41 PM
thanks
raman911
06-11-2008, 10:08 PM
i just installed plugin but don't know how to add ads
Ohiosweetheart
06-12-2008, 12:57 PM
I was thinking of using this, but after reading about the issues users are having, and lack of support for this "supported" modification, I think not.
Sushubh
06-12-2008, 06:41 PM
it doesn't work, i see the code and also when i'm logged in
does not work for me too.
i know this add-on is not advised for usage. but i like it and it works for me! i am looking for a solution. :)
srkrocks
06-26-2008, 03:13 PM
I tried in my skin..doesn't work :S Any Help¿
giraffesyo
06-29-2008, 09:37 AM
Nice.
Can you add left sidebar, right sidebar options?
spitb19
06-29-2008, 03:25 PM
Don't work with vbb 3.7.2 :(
Sushubh
06-29-2008, 03:42 PM
oh damn. that means i am stuck in a bad situation now!
vwdforum
07-18-2008, 08:20 PM
is this mod no more?
this mod has a bad un-installation. :( not a good mod... sorry.
how to un-install this mod without leaving un-cached templates???
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