Should products that only perform template edits be in "Add-ons"?

[Lea Verou]

In the old times, a template modification was a template modification and an addon an addon.
However, vB 3.5 and higher made it possible to perform an automatic template edit via plugins. However, does this make the resulting product an "add-on"? Hey, its still a template modification, its just performed automatically via php code. That doesn't mean its actually a mod! It doesn't add any functionality!

Am I the only one that thinks these products should go in the "template modification" forums? I am sick and tired of entering the "add-ons" section to find some products that add functionality to the forum/blogs and instead encounter a bunch of "masked" template edit stuff.
And yes, I'm aware that I have also did this myself with the "Is this reported?" hack of mine. Since the norm currently is that these go to "Add-ons" I had no choice.

[Dismounted]

Right now, the rule of thumb is that any products (regardless of what they do) go into the "Add-ons" section. Manual modifications to templates should go into the "Templates" section.

[Dean C]

What modifications do you mean?

[Marco van Herwaarden]

With the recent changes in vBulletin like the Template Hooks the categories tend to fade into eachother. It makes it less easy to categorise them.

I personal tend to say (although this is not written in stone) that if something adds functionality, it is an Add-On, if it only change the visual aspects it is a Template modification.

[Paul M]

As it stands, if you upload it as files/plugin/product, it goes in the addons.

[Lea Verou]

With the recent changes in vBulletin like the Template Hooks the categories tend to fade into eachother. It makes it less easy to categorise them.

I personal tend to say (although this is not written in stone) that if something adds functionality, it is an Add-On, if it only change the visual aspects it is a Template modification.
That's what I'm trying to say.

Right now, the rule of thumb is that any products (regardless of what they do) go into the "Add-ons" section. Manual modifications to templates should go into the "Templates" section.

As it stands, if you upload it as files/plugin/product, it goes in the addons.

I know that, I'm just suggesting that it should change :)

[Lizard King]

I agree with Michelle on this subject. I usually donot like to check template edits for personal reasons and recently i have to check automatic template edits and spend my time checking that threads. Also i am not a huge fan of automatic template edits at all. Personally if i use a product and it has automatic template edits i manually edit the plugin and disable that edit.

What modifications do you mean?
For example :
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?threadid=158473

[Alfa1]

Maybe the terminology is not optimal for the categorization, but the current categorization divides modifications into those with and without manual template edits. I think this is optimal for novice users and those who want to avoid manual edits in relation to the hassle of them when upgrading vb.

[Wayne Luke]

Also i am not a huge fan of automatic template edits at all. Personally if i use a product and it has automatic template edits i manually edit the plugin and disable that edit.

Same... Automatic template edits tend to cause so many problems if you change a style even a little bit. Making manual edits is a lot easier when you have a lot of edits in your templates across the board. From my point of view, they make providing support a lot worse as well, simply because you can't easily get to a default style without disabling functions on a customer's board.

[Princeton]

If it modifies templates (and that's all it does) then it should go in TEMPLATES -
this way, members will know that the product is only a "template" change (regardless if product is manual or automatic via search/replace).

[Lea Verou]

Maybe the terminology is not optimal for the categorization, but the current categorization divides modifications into those with and without manual template edits. I think this is optimal for novice users and those who want to avoid manual edits in relation to the hassle of them when upgrading vb.

That's not correct. There are a lot add-ons that include manual template edits (but do add functionality to the forum, and that's why they are in "Add-ons").

[Alfa1]

Then that doesn't make any sense.

[Lea Verou]

Then that doesn't make any sense.
What doesn't make any sense?

[Lizard King]

Same... Automatic template edits tend to cause so many problems if you change a style even a little bit. Making manual edits is a lot easier when you have a lot of edits in your templates across the board. From my point of view, they make providing support a lot worse as well, simply because you can't easily get to a default style without disabling functions on a customer's board.
An addition to this automatic template edits use more resource on your server.

[Dean C]

An addition to this automatic template edits use more resource on your server.

Not if they are done efficiently. Of course they technically use more resources, but it's such a miniscule amount it barely makes a difference even on large sites :)

[Lizard King]

Not if they are done efficiently. Of course they technically use more resources, but it's such a miniscule amount it barely makes a difference even on large sites :)
If you have a lot of plugins or products installed on your board it makes difference and imagine if you even donot have enough server resource then disabling these auto template edits may be a saver for you ;)

[Dean C]

If you have a lot of plugins or products installed on your board it makes difference and imagine if you even donot have enough server resource then disabling these auto template edits may be a saver for you ;)

It makes absolutely no difference how many plugins or products you have installed if you're dynamically changing the HTML before its output. As long as you do it carefully, and efficiently it barely touches the resources.

[TECK]

Not if they are done efficiently. Of course they technically use more resources, but it's such a miniscule amount it barely makes a difference even on large sites :)
Dean, are you sure? Let's do a quick test: Emulate on your test server 1000 users that do 5 preg_replace() per second in a timed loop (through an eval() function) and let me know what are the results. :)
Just for your information, using eval() for templates is already bad... now imagine that you stiff your code with the replaces, especially the ones that use regular expressions. Very bad. So for me, this is definitely a no go.

It makes absolutely no difference how many plugins or products you have installed if you're dynamically changing the HTML before its output. As long as you do it carefully, and efficiently it barely touches the resources.
Let's put it this way: most vBulletin developers hate to use the plugins, for one simple reason: performance. The more code you add through plugins, the worst your board will run. This is not about writing judicious code, is about pure and simple math. More is worst on a busy server environment. So ya... adding more plugins will ruin your board performance.

We don't want to get into those details related to performance tests. vBulletin devs have an impressive array of server configurations and they test their software from any possible angle and performance, which I guarantee you... no hacker does it on those forums. I'm a little freaky with server software (to a point that I write my own custom RPM's to improve the overall server performance) and I still don't have 25% of the capacity to test things like vB. I only have 3 servers to test a piece of code. 3 servers that hammer one board emulating thousands of users spinning like crazy your disks. Still this is not satisfactory to some customers. You get the idea? So for sure I will not edit in any way, shape or form the original vBulletin board, unless I can prove it 100% that my code will not break anything.

You talked about "doing it carefully, and efficiently". I'm just curious, what is your testing process. Until you reply, let me tell you my coding method also: I edit as less as possible the actual vBulletin files.. and if I'm forced, I never use the plugins sytem. I aways edit the PHP code, it improves the code performance by a lot, compared with the same code used through plugins. That is tested by myself into heavy server environment, so I know is true. :)

[Dream]

I never use the plugins sytem. I aways edit the PHP code, it improves the code performance by a lot, compared with the same code used through plugins. That is tested by myself into heavy server environment, so I know is true. :)

That's a good point. But another point is that computing resources should be used to make life more pratical, as in not needing to edit files everytime you have a new version of the software, just upgrade and everything still works, saving you a bunch of time you can spend on other things.

[Lea Verou]

That's a good point. But another point is that computing resources should be used to make life more pratical, as in not needing to edit files everytime you have a new version of the software, just upgrade and everything still works, saving you a bunch of time you can spend on other things.
Agreed :)
And anyway, I would prefer to pay more for a better server than to have to edit the files on each vb upgrade :eek:

I think we are quite off-topic...

[nix]

I'm kind of with TECK on this one. I use plugins but I don't like how most of these new hacks are all coded in plugins. IMO that wasn't the intention of the plugin system

[Paul M]

IMO that wasn't the intention of the plugin system

What was the intention then ?

[nix]

Small code additions or includes. IMO of course ;)

I've noticed a trend where users think a hack/mod is better because it has no file uploads.

[Guest190829]

Small code additions or includes. IMO of course ;)

I've noticed a trend where users think a hack/mod is better because it has no file uploads.

Well anything that takes less time for the Admin is going to be viewed as 'better.' It's quicker to upload one product xml as opposed to editing multiple files, worrying about future upgrades, then uploading them.

[nix]

That might be true, but doesn't mean its correct.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

How do you define "correct"?

[yoyoyoyo]

I think that the term "template modification" implies that you must edit the template manually, since that is what it has always meant in the past. If a plug-in automatically modifes the template then it is a plug-in. The reason being that some people choose not to add any manual template edits (or file edits) to their forum, and use only products and plugins, to make upgrading their vb (when updates are released) much easier. If you choose to make manual template edits then it makes your vb install "less pure," (out of the box) so there should be a way for people to distinguish between plug-ins/products that modify the templates automagically, and those that require manual edits. If you start putting plugins in the template edits area, but they do not require any manual template edits then it tends to muddy those waters more, and makes the differentiation between the cateogries meaningless.

[Lea Verou]

I think that the term "template modification" implies that you must edit the template manually, since that is what it has always meant in the past. If a plug-in automatically modifes the template then it is a plug-in. The reason being that some people choose not to add any manual template edits (or file edits) to their forum, and use only products and plugins, to make upgrading their vb (when updates are released) much easier. If you choose to make manual template edits then it makes your vb install "less pure," (out of the box) so there should be a way for people to distinguish between plug-ins/products that modify the templates automagically, and those that require manual edits. If you start putting plugins in the template edits area, but they do not require any manual template edits then it tends to muddy those waters more, and makes the differentiation between the cateogries meaningless.
As I told before, there are numerous addons that require manual template modification.

[yoyoyoyo]

As I told before, there are numerous addons that require manual template modification.then IMO those would go in the template modification category, but not plug-ins that automatically modify the templates. Otherwise there should be a new category: "plugins that modify templates automatically"

[RedTyger]

Well the poll seems quite conclusive.

[Paul M]

I don't think a poll of 25 votes would ever be classed as conclusive. :)