Automatic install when download?

[Luky]

Hey,

Im sure for most moders, its a pain to get your downloaders to click install, so why dont you make it when you download the attachment it marks as installed for you?

Thanks, Jay!

[UltimateOreo!]

Well, its really as easy as clicking a button. You can assume how many people are using it be looking at the downloads, but everytime someone downloads it, install it, but doesn't like it, I don't want to go back, find the thread and click Uninstall Modification. You can get an idea of how many people truly like your hack by the install, or you can just look at the downloads and get a rough idea.

[Luky]

But in the forum for mods there is an option to sort by installs but not sort by downloads :(

[Paul M]

Downloads is not very meaningful as it gets reset each time you update the file. People often download a file many times as well.

[hambil]

'callhome' to click the install button has been done, in fact it was done rather famously by Paul himself. They nearly hung him from a tree for it. It makes perfect sense to me, but... TPTB went crazy.

[Luky]

Downloads is not very meaningful as it gets reset each time you update the file. People often download a file many times as well.
Exactly why it should mark as installed automaticly. :D Oh and ofcorse you can only make it as installed once so it wont be a problem for mass downloaders :)

[Paul M]

Since you only joined in Oct 2006 you won't be aware of the large amount of fuss that an automatic install system caused. Suffice to say its not likely to happen. :)

[Luky]

May i ask for a brief explination?

[Ziki]

Yes.Search :)

[Brad]

Exactly why it should mark as installed automaticly. :D Oh and ofcorse you can only make it as installed once so it wont be a problem for mass downloaders :)
Does any application auto install itself on your computer (aside from malware and crapware) when you download it?

There is your answer.

Aside from that I shouldn't have to delete items from my install list everytime I download something. Unlike most people here I download and read the code before I even consider installation. I also install stuff for other people upon request...such modifications would be useless if they're sitting in my install list.

What it really comes down to is the fact that a lot of people here are worried about some title under their user name. If you can't deal with not getting enough 'clicks' you might want to think about why you release stuff here in the first place. They are just numbers...and if I could I'd had all the install counts for my hacks set to zero just to prove my point.

[TheHeartSmasher]

I don't want to have to go uncheck installed for something I have downloaded and not actually installed. Some of the modifications are not what was expected before download or may conflict with something that has already been done, but could only be found out by downloading the file and testing it on a test site.

[hambil]

I don't want to have to go uncheck installed for something I have downloaded and not actually installed. Some of the modifications are not what was expected before download or may conflict with something that has already been done, but could only be found out by downloading the file and testing it on a test site.
Yeah, download != install. However, install == install. And a callhome would handle updating 'installed' on both install and uninstall. It would work very much like the already exiting version check and product urls.


https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/misc.php?do=product&sa=install&pid=xxxxxx&vblicense=xyz
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/misc.php?do=product&sa=uninstall&pid=xxxxxx&vblicense=xyz
Or whatever way you want to secure it, if not vblicense. That's just an example. vBulletin itself already does this for tracking it's own installs, so I really just don't get the flap over having a centralized way for hack authors to do the same.

[DrewM]

Yeah, download != install. However, install == install. And a callhome would handle updating 'installed' on both install and uninstall. It would work very much like the already exiting version check and product urls.


https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/misc.php?do=product&sa=install&pid=xxxxxx&vblicense=xyz
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/misc.php?do=product&sa=uninstall&pid=xxxxxx&vblicense=xyz
Or whatever way you want to secure it, if not vblicense. That's just an example. vBulletin itself already does this for tracking it's own installs, so I really just don't get the flap over having a centralized way for hack authors to do the same.
the urls was some thing that I think is a good idea.

[Luky]

Does any application auto install itself on your computer (aside from malware and crapware) when you download it?

There is your answer.

Aside from that I shouldn't have to delete items from my install list everytime I download something. Unlike most people here I download and read the code before I even consider installation. I also install stuff for other people upon request...such modifications would be useless if they're sitting in my install list.

What it really comes down to is the fact that a lot of people here are worried about some title under their user name. If you can't deal with not getting enough 'clicks' you might want to think about why you release stuff here in the first place. They are just numbers...and if I could I'd had all the install counts for my hacks set to zero just to prove my point.
But that is different, you can just download and install the files from here without accually marking it as installed where as on your computer, you cannot use the application without running the installer unless you wish to waste your time and unpack it then install it manually, which is just stupid.

[Brad]

But that is different, you can just download and install the files from here without accually marking it as installed where as on your computer, you cannot use the application without running the installer unless you wish to waste your time and unpack it then install it manually, which is just stupid.

It is the same..unless the application you downloaded is reporting back to another server. ;) In other words when you install "Joe's screensaver manager" it doesn't tell Joe you installed it and even if it tried to you could always yank the cable from your computer to prevent it from doing so (unless he's evil an requires and internet connection before allowing you to use it). Aside from that you missed the point....

Anyway who cares if I click install or not? That's my business not yours. For example why should I install my own modifications? I don't need to know about updates and I don't care to have them crowding my list in the usercp. The only reason I do click install for my own modifications is so I can make sure the update e-mails get sent when I do send them.

What I'm saying is this basically; Anyone that needs the features that the install button provides is going to click it anyway. So why bother with forcing the rest of us to click uninstall all of the time just so a few people get a better user title?

Yeah, download != install. However, install == install. And a callhome would handle updating 'installed' on both install and uninstall. It would work very much like the already exiting version check and product urls.

I'll tell you why a call home doesn't work and why the old staff decided not to allow it. We thought it was a nice idea to be honest but people were abusing it. I won't name names but many people where using it in a way that would click install upon installation but not click un-install upon de-installtion. We felt using a call home in that manner was in bad taste.

Also, we had a few complaints from people installing modifications on their test forums. They were not pleased to see certain modifications appering in their usercp 'out of no where'. It was causing us problems....so we fixed the problem.

It could work in a perfect world don't get me wrong. There are just too many ways for it to be abused and few bad apples ruined it for everyone. IMO it would be fine as long as hack author's don't have to add it themselves to the install/uninstall code for products. vBulletin should handle such things and do the needed work based on the productid. Such changes would require a lot of work for the staff here and the developers though. I don't really see the pay off in doing all that work when again, anyone that needs to click the install button is already doing so already.

There will always be ways for people to 'rob you of your install count' so I honestly don't see the point in worrying about it. You should just be happy with learning new things and having other people enjoy your work.

[hambil]

You should just be happy with learning new things and having other people enjoy your work.
I appreciate that point of view. And I'm not going to restart the whole argument again. Just appreciate in return that many mod authors feel more strongly about install counts than you do.

I'm glad to know the staff considered this idea. I hope it continues to be considered. I think if it is built into vb.org via product id it would be great.

As for cluttering up your install list, well, no offense but that's a pretty lame argument. Instead of screwing the mod authors how about maybe tweaking the way the installed list works?

[Brad]

Just appreciate in return that many mod authors feel more strongly about install counts than you do.

I can't appreciate that fact because one only cares about such things when they care about status. Honestly we'd all be better off if the counts where hidden..but then that wouldn't be fair to the end users. The counts are there for the end users...not us.

As for cluttering up your install list, well, no offense but that's a pretty lame argument. Instead of screwing the mod authors how about maybe tweaking the way the installed list works?

A list...even redesigned is a list. It must be managed and kept clean. A re-design is just hiding the root problem for the same 'lame reasons' we've been hearing about for years. ;)

If you need more reasons I'm happy to provide them;

1) The "hide a url in <img>" never worked for users that were not logged in. Any similar trick is going to suffer from the same problem.
2) Because install tracking requires a user be a registered member it fails to add a count if a user is not logged in. While it's not a big issue you could argue that this is a waste of server resources.
3) Because number one and two are true, the next thing you'll be asking for is a log-in prompt for vB.org in the admincp if a user is not already logged in.
4) Because number one, two, and three are true I will no longer be able to install modifications without begin logged into vB.org first.
5) Because number one, two, three, and four are true I will no longer be able to install modifications if vBulletin.org is offline or I am not connected to the internet.
6) If you allow users to by-pass the log-in check after doing all the work above the system itself is useless...imagine that! So why do it in the first place?

I could go on but I think you see my point. :)

[Luky]

18:40 You loose 460 health points from an attack by the wall of text.
18:41 You are dead.

I aint reading all that :D But anywho, if you dont like this idea, all i wanted is a way to sort by the most downloaded hacks so i can see whats most popular :)

[hambil]

I can't appreciate that fact because one only cares about such things when they care about status. Honestly we'd all be better off if the counts where hidden..but then that wouldn't be fair to the end users. The counts are there for the end users...not us.

Gee, thanks for meeting me halfway. Fine, you don't care about your install count. I do. Many others have clearly stated they do also. You want it insist on seeing us a lesser people for it, have at it and enjoy your day.


A list...even redesigned is a list. It must be managed and kept clean. A re-design is just hiding the root problem for the same 'lame reasons' we've been hearing about for years. ;)
Someone decided to arbitrarily tie receiving update notices to the installed status. Now they are using that completely arbitrary coupling of two very different things as an excuse to not have one of those things work correctly. Automate installed/uninstalled and then change the name of the installed button to 'get updates'. Wow, problem solved. The thing, as you should know, is there are a hundred ways to solve any software problem.


If you need more reasons I'm happy to provide them;

1) The "hide a url in <img>" never worked for users that were not logged in. Any similar trick is going to suffer from the same problem.
The rest of your reason all seem to fall out from this 'logged in idea'. And since it's incorrect the rest are all incorrect. 'hide url' doesn't work because the user is viewing the site in question. A call home works much more like AJAX. There is no reason or need for the user to login. The information is sent and recorded just fine with nothing but a productid and vbulletin license number which we already know you can tie to an account here - in fact every account here is required to have a license number.

[Brad]

Gee, thanks for meeting me halfway. Fine, you don't care about your install count. I do. Many others have clearly stated they do also. You want it insist on seeing us a lesser people for it, have at it and enjoy your day.


Good old text and it's ability to convey the wrong meaning. I'm not going to meet you halfway because I don't agree with your position, but that doesn't mean I see you as less of a person. Infact if I did I wouldn't be taking the time to explain my thoughts like I did.

Honestly why does everyone have to get all pissy when someone speaks their mind? I guess I should I have used a million smilies in my last post or something? ;)

The rest of your reason all seem to fall out from this 'logged in idea'. And since it's incorrect the rest are all incorrect. 'hide url' doesn't work because the use is viewing the site in question. A call home works much more like AJAX. There is no reason or need for the user to login. The information is sent and recorded just fine with nothing but a productid and vbulletin license number which we already know you can tie to an account here - in fact every account here is required to have a license number.

I know what a call home is and I know what AJAX is thank you.

All of that still doesn't change the fact that installs are only accepted from logged in users. If you code the 'call home' in php it doesn't magically solve this problem. You'd still have to prompt for log-in if you wanted it to work everytime. If it doesn't work everytime then it's useless by nature and not worth doing in the first place. Why can't you understand this?

Someone decided to arbitrarily tie receiving update notices to the installed status.

That someone was Chen (www.vbulletin.org/forum/member.php?u=1). The system was put together to allow hack authors to send updates to end users via e-mail. It also allowed end users to track which modifications they were using via the user cp. Number of installs were only shown to give people an idea of how popular a modification was based on the number of people 'tracking' it.

Indeed "Install" probably was the wrong word to use for the image...but at the time everyone understood exactly what it was for and why it was put in place. All hell broke lose when the user title's started begin based on install counts (much later on) and it hasn't stopped since then.

The information is sent and recorded just fine with nothing but a productid and vbulletin license number which we already know you can tie to an account here - in fact every account here is required to have a license number.

You are very very wrong. I won't go into why..but you need to re-think your theory on the backend of this site. ;)

I think I've said everything one can say about this...and I tire of arguing about numbers at 3:45am. Off to bed for me. :)

[hambil]

Good old text and it's ability to convey the wrong meaning. I'm not going to meet you halfway because I don't agree with your position
I didn't intend to get pissy either. But I never asked you to agree with my position. I asked you to understand that I and many others feel differently than you, and I said I understood your point of view even if I didn't agree with it. You refused to do the same, thus making me get 'pissy'.

It also allowed end users to track which modifications they were using via the user cp.
Hack authors are also end users. You also referred to 'end users' in a previous post. We dont' work for you, we don't work for vBulletin, and we pay our money to license this product and donate our time and skills on this site. We are very much end users. Thinking of us any other way is what caused a near rebellion on this site last year.

[Luky]

Okay okay guys! Cool down, please dont argue! Argue leads to hate and hate leads to emo! :O Dont make me go chuck norris on you two!

[Chris M]

Chuck norris? Pffh... The Hoff will pwn Chuck :p

Chris

[hambil]

All of that still doesn't change the fact that installs are only accepted from logged in users. If you code the 'call home' in php it doesn't magically solve this problem. You'd still have to prompt for log-in if you wanted it to work everytime. If it doesn't work everytime then it's useless by nature and not worth doing in the first place. Why can't you understand this?

Because it's an excuse. So what if installs are only accepted from a logged in user? That just means the org has coded it that way. I do version checks without logging in. I can pull rss without logging in. The callhome that vb already has in the product doesn't require I log in. You put a button on a page, and since the logical assumption is that people must show up to push said button it is coded for them to need to be logged in. That doesn't mean it's the only possible way it can be done - it just means that is the way it is currently done.

And again, much of this problem goes away if you stop arbitrarily tying install numbers to people wanting support and update emails. You're overloading the function.

[Paul M]

Because it's an excuse. So what if installs are only accepted from a logged in user? That just means the org has coded it that way. I do version checks without logging in. I can pull rss without logging in. It happens to be coded that way for a very good reason. Version checking and RSS feeds do not keep a count - if no check on the 'installer' was done than you could just keep on sending "installed" notifications to mods (including your own) and watch the install count shoot through the roof (not to mention how would the system know where to send update e-mails to).

As for members/vb licence - you seem to be under the mistaken impression that we know members licence number - we don't, we have no knowledge of members licence or customer number. If you read the messages about how to show up as licensed here, you will clearly note that the 'link' used is e-mail address.

[hambil]

It happens to be coded that way for a very good reason. Version checking and RSS feeds do not keep a count - if no check on the 'installer' was done than you could just keep on sending "installed" notifications to mods (including your own) and watch the install count shoot through the roof (not to mention how would the system know where to send update e-mails to).
It would be simple to only allow one install per mod per user - you don't need to log in for that. As you state below, there is a link - in this case e-mail address. I said in my original post:
Or whatever way you want to secure it, if not vblicense. That's just an example.So let's not get hung up on the vb license - email works fine too. Or half a dozen other ways I can think of. Will it take a little bit of thought and design to insure it is secure (or as secure as anything else ever is) - yes, but that doesn't make it impossible, not by a long a shot.

And worse case, if a login is required, it certainly doesn't need to be interactive and have a login box. I enter my account and password one time only for my email, and I can pop and smtp for years without ever entering it again, because authentication is being done without my need to interact.

[Luky]

Chuck norris? Pffh... The Hoff will pwn Chuck :p

Chris
And the Jay (me) will pwn the Hoff!

[Brad]

It would be simple to only allow one install per mod per user - you don't need to log in for that.

Requiring log-in is the only safe way to check that the user is indeed valid. How are the supposed to check for your licensed status if you're not logged in? How are they supposed to make sure multiple installs are not sent to modifications? You do realize that if it was 'open' I could place a bit of code in an endless loop and nock this server offline while also ending up with one hell of an install count, right?

Are you suggesting they start checking your ip address upon installation from the admincp and keeping a database of them here? Do you have any idea how much work all of this is going to be (no matter what data is used)!? Even after all that work it'll be no where near as secure as the current way is...that's why they require log-in...it's easy and reliable security.

So let's not get hung up on the vb license - email works fine too. Or half a dozen other ways I can think of. Will it take a little bit of thought and design to insure it is secure (or as secure as anything else ever is) - yes, but that doesn't make it impossible, not by a long a shot.

So now you want my vB.org e-mail address sitting in my personal forums database? How exactly is this any better than having to log-in with my username and password (which I've already said would be highly annoying as well). Even if it wasn't my e-mail address...say it was some random code from my profile here. I still don't want to remember and enter that damn thing every time I install a hack.

And worse case, if a login is required, it certainly doesn't need to be interactive and have a login box. I enter my account and password one time only for my email, and I can pop and smtp for years without ever entering it again, because authentication is being done without my need to interact.

It still requires a prompt the one time (for you at least), and most smart users don't leave username and passwords hanging around forever like that. You're still going to annoy a ton of people with such a system even if there is some way to 'by-pass' the log-in prompt every time.

Aside from that what goes on in my admincp is none of your business, nor is it any of the staff's business. If they do put such a system in place that is fine by me...I'll just rip the damn thing out of the source code. I feel for the rest of your that don't know how to do that though, because I'm sure the mod author's are going to demand that such instructions are not posted for fear of yet again losing install counts. :rolleyes:

[hambil]

So now you want my vB.org e-mail address sitting in my personal forums database?
Are you suggesting that your personal forum database isn't secure? If so, then vb should really let us know because I've got other personal data in my forum database I'd rather be secure - and not just my own.


It still requires a prompt the one time (for you at least), and most smart users don't leave username and passwords hanging around forever like that. You're still going to annoy a ton of people with such a system even if there is some way to 'by-pass' the log-in prompt every time.
Yeah, people would get annoyed and stop using something if they had to log in now and then. Oh, wait, that's how forum software itself works. :erm:

[Paul M]

I really don't know what the final part of you post is trying to imply, but Brad is no longer on the Staff through personal choice, nothing else. Please keep any further personal remarks about other members to yourself.

[hambil]

I apologize Brad. Perhaps I am reading into your posts something that isn't there.

I will take a break from this thread for now :)

[Brad]

I apologize Brad. Perhaps I am reading into your posts something that isn't there.

I will take a break from this thread for now :)
I may come off as "mean" at some times but I assure you I never 'mean' it. ;) I just prefer to get to the point as quickly as possible and leave 'feelings' at the door. I argue with facts in other words.

Also when I say things like 'damn' it doesn't mean I'm angry...although it could come off that way I'm sure. Damn is just a normal part of my speech patterns IRL (mostly in the form of "God Damnit" at the end of a sentence) and it tends to leak over into text. Honestly I find myself searching for words all the time as my southern slang would only serve to confuse you all if I typed it out.

As I tell everyone if I was mad at you you'd probably know it, because I wouldn't be taking the time to respond to these threads. I appreciate your effort in trying to think up work around and compromises for this situation but if I see holes in your theory I'm going to bring them up. That's just how it is...but I'm not claiming I'm always right..in fact a Microsoft employee made me look like a dumb ass a few days ago on one of the forums I admin. ;)

[hambil]

I may come off as "mean" at some times but I assure you I never 'mean' it. ;) I just prefer to get to the point as quickly as possible and leave 'feelings' at the door. I argue with facts in other words.
I also argue with facts. Everyone thinks they argue with facts. Yet most things people consider facts are really only opinions, no matter how strong they feel about them. There are many ways to look at any given issue. This issue is a great example of how smart people from many different backgrounds and groups can have wildly different ideas of what facts are and what is 'right'. :)

[Cap'n Steve]

I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing about. Your license is tied to your account right? So what's wrong with vBulletin sending a request to vbulletin.org/misc.php?do=install&product=whatever&license=12345 whenever a product gets installed? It might not work with people with multiple licenses, but it's better than nothing.

I guarantee there are people using insecure versions of my hacks out there. And if those scripts do get exploited, I'm sure they'll blame this site.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Like Paul already mentioned: There is no connection to a license# from vbulletin.org.

[Dream]

Well I think install counts should be viewed more like a percentage relative to other mods install counts.

My biggest problem is that few people install mods which I think are great while other not so great mods have high install counts. The market place here is hard to please for me, I'm not sure what kinds of people I'm dealing with, if they rather have pretty flashy things to good functionality. Also I don't like how my mods are quickly buried under an avalanche of threads, never again to be seen. I wonder how some people are able to find them and install them.

There was an interesting point in this topic, that Mark As Installed should be Get Updates. I think changing it would help having a more precise install count. It would also remove the feeling that install counts are actually the precise number of people that installed.

[hambil]

There was an interesting point in this topic, that Mark As Installed should be Get Updates. I think changing it would help having a more precise install count. It would also remove the feeling that install counts are actually the precise number of people that installed.
In my opinion the current install button is overloaded in triplicate right now. If has the following three functions:
1) Identifying end users who want to get update emails.
2) Showing the end user how popular a mod is.
3) Showing the mod author how many people have installed his/her mod.

The only thing it actually does well is #1.

It should thus be renamed, and a town-hall style meeting should be held to discuss the other two. For starters, #2 is supposed to be taken care of by thread ratings, IMHO the thread rating system would need to be expanded into some sort of ebay style feedback system before it would have much value.

#3 Should be handled with as much accuracy as possible, or just not done at all.

[Dismounted]

I like the idea of getting it named 'Get Updates', it sounds more logical than 'Install'.

[Dream]

Check my other thread in this forum, I made it to discuss that specifically.