Hacks - Traps for users?

[lanc3lot]

Greetings to all,

I am at vb.org some time now, and i am writting this thread, as i have to admit, i am very very offended from the workings and the tactics of someone who posted a hack here.

First of all, my "idea" of vb.org, is that this site is about sharing. I am very lucky that 2 years i am here, i have tested,installed and worked with many great ideas - hacks that helped me create a good forum and for this reason, i get the chance to know many good coders, around vb.org that i now talk them regularly in msn.

Its the first time that i had the following incident (maybe i was lucky?) and i felt as i wrote above, very very offended.

So after this small intro, here we go:

Forms Hack 3.5 (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=93970) - A Hack from user, Abe1, which is a Master Coder as he is saying, so i assume a respected coder of the community. A normal user like me, that is reading the hack description, understands that its a form hack which, u can make various forms easily, in your site.

In the hack description, i read:

I will create forms for who-ever wants me to. I have created something that will generate a form. You would give me the settings and questions you want and I will give you the file you need to upload so you will have a form for your site. This thing I created has some better features then the hack I distribute. Once you get the form, if you want to make any changes, you would be able to do it in the template. All the questions and descriptions are added directly into the template and are not located in the plug-in.

I also read:

This hack is created for your use free of charge. No payment is requested

Now, lets see the hack itself. Its clearly to anyone who see it, that a normal user, without much html knowledge, cant create himself the forms. Its not used with various menus for example through admincp (i wonder why it isnt, read more plz and u will understand), not have options to fill in, just a code u must write with the guidelines that the coder gives you.
So a normal user, that see this hack, what he will do? He will pm the creator, with the content of its form he wants, so he can have it in his site. Do u agree?

So i did that, as the php coder of my site was on holidays and i needed that for an occation.

Lets take a break here!

What is a form anyway? Is anything complex thing, that to fix it taking hours? Is not possible to fix it with various progz easily like frontpage and have it in zip time?

Break over, lets continue !!

So i send the pm, and after 9 days (just mentioning, have not nothing to do with the following), i got the following email, from the designer:

I will list here everything I need from you to make the form.


There is a fee of $25 per form made. You don't have pay it until you have the form up and running on your site. Payment can be made via paypal. my paypal email address is: xxx. You can also use the donation link that is posted with this hack.

If there is a bug fix or a new feature that comes out, you will get the updated XML for free.

In order to install the form once I have it complete, you will just have to upload the XML file I give you into your products.

Feel free to ask me questions. I will also add features as users request them.

Here is the info I need from you: (bla bla, its has the options of the form)

You can write up all the questions and tell me what order you want them in.

Feel free to ask me any questions you have.

Abe1


Now, if u forgot, go little upper and see what he wrote on the hack itself about payment.

So...i ask you and please a VB.ORG Officer (i am wow addicted, if the word is different, sorry) reply too...

The whole hack, is not now, after u read all that, a good trap, to bring users and have them pay money?
Why dont make the hack more easily configured or release a form creator (as he is saying he got it).

a) And in case a "friend" post here, and say, he has every right to ask money, i agree too...BUT, he must write this IN CLEARLY WAY in his hack, so ppl like me and others, dont be dupes!! He is not saying that the pro version is payed, he is not saying that with pm he, i will charge you money...he just FORGETS to say anything...

After all, i created my form my own (without the "auto hack of his") but i decided to write this to you (i already told abe1 that i will), so ppl like me avoid using something thats its clearly a money trick and dont get duped.

I have nothing against Abe1, i am just as i said 2 times now, very very offended, as 2 years here, i feel vb.org, as a very familliar place.

Your thougts plz and of course an official reply, mainly from vb.org if someone is available.

Lancelot

[jluerken]

A hack is what the name says a HACK!
See it as small code snippet which has someone written for his own board and now sharing it with the community.
In most cases its not more than beta code and unsupported.
Documentations are not very well and help is limited to the coders will and time.

3.5 improved the situation alot with the new product system but you still have users that:

- never read the instructions
- are directly asking the coder before trying to find out things herself
- are simply to stupid to run and maintain a board cause basic knowledge is missing

I would agree to you for a product where you've paid money for.
If the coder sets his product to SUPPORTED that does not mean that he/she is doing everything for you.
It means that he/she will give a helping hand when there is time.

If you would like to have the functioniality of a hack but its simply not working to you you can ask the coder to implement or rewrite it to your needs for you.
If it can be done fast, the past has shown that most coders are willed to spend their time for free for you (which is my experience).
If it will take hours or a few days its more than fair that they ask money for their work.

You have to decide if its worth it.

[lanc3lot]

Maybe u didnt understood what was the main reason i created this thread. I dont complain that someone is delaying to help me on a hack, i am much experienced after 2 years now, to know that very well... I am saying that the hack i am reffering to, the way it have been written, is more that a "trap to make money" than a hack itself. The whole "story" about the money, must be written clearly on these hacks....

[Guest210212002]

I completely disagree.

He coded up a hack, and offered it up for free, to everyone here at vb.org. Should you be inclined, you can ask him to make forms for you instead of making your own. If you don't want to read the directions and take the time to learn to build your own forms, you can ask him. You're angry about using a FREE hack by Abe1, and that he won't take extra time out of his day to write up custom forms for you for nothing? In addition to all the time he spent coding the hack in the first place, you expect him to take more time making custom forms for you for free?

Abe's hack isn't "clearly a money trick". You PM'd him, he replied with his fee. Nowhere in his hack does it say "I will spend hours writing up forms for anyone that wants them free of charge". The hack IS free. If you want custom code for YOUR site, it's common sense that it's going to cost you.

A very selfish argument, and not a very nice way to drag someone's name through the mud because you misunderstood him. He didn't take your money, he PM'd you with a price, and you're implying that he's some kind of shady businessman. It's posts like this by people like you who make coders not want to publish their stuff here.

[Code Monkey]

Plus, hack authors are not allowed to mention fees or such in the hack thread or anywhere else on this site.

[gonik]

He could just however just say that he would charge for those extra services. He didn't mentioned it in his post. I know it's forbidden to post prices, but he could just say that "for something you want specific for your site it will be a cost".

He should declare it. That's why there was a misunderstanding. Just saying "I will create forms for who-ever wants me to." somebody can assume that he will create it for free... I mean c'mon.. most of us here are developers. Details DOES matter.

[Neo_Angelo]

in vbulletin.orgs rules i think i read somewhere that any hack posted on here must be FREE. hence why people put up donation buttons, i suppose if you have the talent to code your things you might as well make some cash doing it, and abe1 wasn't in the wrong asking for money since the release he did on vB.org was FREE but if you wanted it customized you would need to pay.

you probably just misunderstood the concept of how hacks work here.

[lanc3lot]

Its all about details i agree. Reading the hack, u dont undestand that he is going to help in forms, free of charge? I think that in cases like that, it must be mentioned. For example i have seen many hacks around that are saying that whatever u see in the hack release is just the basic version and the pro version is bla bla bla. With saying that will create forms for who-ever wants me to. without mentioning, that ppl hey, there is a possible fee for this, i think its bad as users will misanderstood what he means.

Anyway, just my thoughts here, dont have any personal with anyone...

[bairy]

To be fair to Abe1 it does say "will create forms for whoever". It doesn't say "for free". The thing specified as free is the hack itself.

I haven't read the site rules (and before anyone tuts, 95% of the members haven't) but if he can't mention the fee in the initial description then there's not really a lot he or you can do.
Creating a hack on the scale he does is really really hard work and to then offer it out with no compulsory payment is worthy of huge respect.
I know $25 can seem a bit of a sting but to be fair it takes quite a while to learn how to do html, and another while to learn how to manipulate vb, so it's not unreasonable to ask for something back when people ask for custom jobs.

Amykahr once gave the fitting analogy that she needed a freezer. If someone was kind enough to give her a freezer she wouldn't then expect them to come round, fit it and maintain it for free. (Not an exact analogy but close enough)


p.s. What is a form anyway? Is anything complex thing, that to fix it taking hours? Is not possible to fix it with various progz easily like frontpage and have it in zip time?

No. Frontpage will make a mess of the form because it makes a mess of everything. Forms as forms aren't hugely complicated but they can be fiddly, especially if they're of any real size.

[bashy]

I aggree, Abe1 is a great coder, he does state that he will help with forms should it be needed, surely you didnt expect someone to go out of there way to do this for nothing?

Coders are busy people, they dont just code, they also have a life as i am sure your aware....

He states that that hack is FREE, he only states that he will help should you need it, if he wants to charge for the help then thats entirely upto him...

In my opinion he has done nothing wrong, and does a great job with many hacks...

I am sure that if you had spoken to him with regards to this matter then it would not have come to you having to post a thread like this...

A community such as this does not really need peeps trying to put other peeps down, its not the way to do things, anywhere for that matter, you should have spoken via pm, it aint nice trying to discredit a fellow member.

I would feel might embarrased that a PRIVATE MESSAGE has been posted for all to see.....

Sorry but thats how i see and feel about this matter, I hope a mod removes this so that no one else can see this.....

[lanc3lot]

I expect him to write it in the hack, dont try to transform this thread, to something else that it isnt.

I expect to have the details in front of me, as to me is sounded like a trap. If he have written what i said before, it wouldnt seem so...

And i feel i have every right to express my thoughts to the feedback forum - ffs

To be fair to Abe1 it does say "will create forms for whoever". It doesn't say "for free". The thing specified as free is the hack itself.

Yes but he doesnt say either that it will cost. So the more logic assumption is that as the hack is free, and he doesnt say anything about a cost, he will make the forms free.
I dont wait / expect noone to do my job, i discuss the whole matter only from the aspect how it looks. I created the bloody form anyway, so im only reffering to the look of it.

No. Frontpage will make a mess of the form because it makes a mess of everything. Forms as forms aren't hugely complicated but they can be fiddly, especially if they're of any real size.


Frontpage was an example of a prog for noobs, that help them create sites. Put there anything similar, u got what i mean i think...

[bairy]

There's little point getting annoyed/upset.

You do have the right to express how you feel of course, but with that comes people who may agree or disagree with you, which is one of the things you asked for.
Your original post wasn't so much "hey I don't like this but I'm not really that bothered", it was "this is a trap to get people to pay!!", and when you create something like that people are going to reply in various ways.

Others have already stated that site rules say he's not allowed to say he'll charge for services. You might have had a point about it being a trap from the wording except he clearly states in his PM to you that there will be a charge... and you don't have to pay until the work is done and you're happy, so it's not really a trap - it's just following the site rules. The fact it looks bad (to you) is just an unfortunate coincidence.

[Freesteyelz]

@ lanc3lot:

I see your situation merely as a misunderstanding. You had an expecation from what you've read and assumed incorrectly; that is unfortunate but it's life. No where in the description did it state that he'll create custom forms for free; only the hack is. A simple Q & A, to clarify the paragraph quoted in your first post, would have resolved the matter without the dramatics.

Yes, you're upset but in the end you do have a hack, you've created a form and no money was lost. Smile and move on.

[Cky47]

You gotta be fair man... its not a trap, programmers have to make a living too. By running a website you should know how to make forms and such anyways, thats common knowledge. The real problem is that there are too many people running forums that dont even know how to make a website. Then when it come time they want hack and stuff, they expect the programmers to just openly do all the custom work for the hacks for other peoples boards. A hack is a hack, its not a chance to bum work out of a programmer.

Stop complaining... like I said, we gotta make money too somehow. His hack was free, and easy to set up, you guys just need to learn a little html before you go and think a vbulletin kit equals an instant website.

[Guest210212002]

Frontpage was an example of a prog for noobs, that help them create sites. Put there anything similar, u got what i mean i think...

Please do us all a favor and stow your World of Warcraft attitude at the door here. There are no "noobs", only people willing to learn. Stop being so insulting, this isn't an MMORPG, this is a community of professionals who help one another.

[lanc3lot]

If you got "noobs" so badly, its not my problem, but yours. I didnt mean anything more than that they dont know the basics. (its the same actually in WoW, as ppl eventually get know the game, and start playing differently, put the talents in right things, etc.).

Anyway, i expressed my thoughts and apparently many of you disagree. My point was to show that details matter much more that some think, and in here things must be more clear.

I wanted also a vb officer (chris-777 please allow this, ok?:D) reply, but ok, for me the thread is over.

Thnx for your time folks:)

[jluerken]

This thread starts to become a flaming thread.
Its no fair discussion anymore. Mods please close this therad, its a shame for vb.org

[Guest210212002]

If you got "noobs" so badly, its not my problem, but yours. I didnt mean anything more than that they dont know the basics. (its the same actually in WoW, as ppl eventually get know the game, and start playing differently, put the talents in right things, etc.).

Anyway, i expressed my thoughts and apparently many of you disagree. My point was to show that details matter much more that some think, and in here things must be more clear.

I wanted also a vb officer (chris-777 please allow this, ok?:D) reply, but ok, for me the thread is over.

Thnx for your time folks:)

It's not "officer", it's "moderator", and this isn't a video game. If you wanted to keep it between you and the staff here, you should have PM'd them. When you come out and attack coders en masse and start calling people names like "noob", don't be suprised if people get offended.

[yessir]

It's not "officer", it's "moderator", and this isn't a video game. If you wanted to keep it between you and the staff here, you should have PM'd them. When you come out and attack coders en masse and start calling people names like "noob", don't be suprised if people get offended.
You're dealing with a poster from Greece for whom English may or may not be a comfortable language, and demanding that they stop using netspeak, on the internet no less.

Today's word should be TOLERANCE. Every "successful" admin is familiar with the term.

I don't see an attack en masse. He's got an opinion, he expressed it, and he's happy to move on. Not unreasonable to expect from a board full of forum admins.

@ lanc3lot ~ I agree that it is a little misleading. Perhaps simply, hacks should be free, and support if there is payment involved should be clearly defined as such (checkbox?). I doubt the hack author is trying to take advantage of anyone.

vB.org has a lot of work to do to improve areas like this because everytime free intersects with money on this board, it causes an uproar. When a grey area in the rules is found, it should be addressed. Yes, things should be made much clearer or there should be a member channel to seek clarification.

[Guest210212002]

You're dealing with a poster from Greece for whom English may or may not be a comfortable language, and demanding that they stop using netspeak, on the internet no less.

No, I'm correcting him because he mentioned it himself in the first post.


So...i ask you and please a VB.ORG Officer (i am wow addicted, if the word is different, sorry) reply too...

And I'm not asking him not to use netspeak, I'm saying that it's not cool to call people "noobs" like this is Counter-Strike instead of a programming forum.

I've made my point. If you want to defend the guy go right ahead, but I think he's 100% in the wrong.

[Chris M]

Ok guys; Theres no need for personal attacks in this thread on each other, so as such I have decided to close this thread...

Chris

[Marco van Herwaarden]

We have send the author a PM requesting him to change his wording a bit.

I don't see it against the rules that if someone wants the author of a hack to do some custom work for them, adjusting the free hack to the specifics of a member, that the author request a payment for that extra custom work. It is up to the user to accept that or not.

Please keep in mind that this is an international community and that english is not the first language for many members. That goes for regular members as well as coders/designers. Please don't let misinterpretation of poor choice of words get into accusations like this.

[Chris M]

Update for all concerned: Abe1 has altered the modification first post to add "(for a small fee)" to the custom form creation element of the post :)

Chris