Members Helping Members

[Wayne Luke]

Hello, I understand that some of you are frustrated and feel underappreciated. The staff here have taken notice and they are working feverishly to fix this. What I would like to do is relay some of the information to you as this is your community.

When this site was first conceived, the addon authors went out of their way to help others. They didn't look down on you if you didn't know PHP and thought that it was against the vBulletin philosophy to do so. vBulletin is created in a way where you do not need to know how to write PHP code or run a MySQL Query. A lot of functionality is geared towards non-technical people. Without specific numbers, I would say 30% of all new customers know little more than how to use a web browser on their computers.

In order to support these customers, this site needs to get back to a member-helping-members mentality. Taking your hacks commercial might help line your pockets but it doesn't help this community or anyone else. Now, don't get me wrong here... I understand the need to make a buck in the modern world. In a true community though people help others. Answer questions, provide articles and tutorials. Help each other. Who knows, but that person who knows absolutely no PHP code might be an awesome accountant or publicist that can help you down the road. Everyone is more than a handle and a userid. Likewise if you utilize an addon and find it useful then thank the author and click the install button. It is a nice courtesy. The mentality of coders vs. non-coders has to end.

Everyone with a vBulletin license has a right to be here. Taking your toys and storming out of the park is not the way to handle the situation. Discussing it like mature people is. I know that things move slowly on this site and there are many reasons for that. Hopefully that will change in the near future. There are several discussions going on now amongst the staff regarding this and other issues with the site. As more becomes known, we will pass the information on to you.

Up until now you haven't had an active role in developing this community. Currently the staff is being restructured with defined roles. This will also open up new staff positions. Once the new staff structure is in place, the different positions will act as liaisons to get work done on the site. This can include new styles, new functionality or redesigning existing functionality. Different projects will be outlines and individual projects will be worked on similar to an open source methodology with the sharing of ideas among peers.
So in short, I ask that you bear with the staff here for a while longer. They are striving to work in the community's best interest.

While I am at it, I would like to ask that those coders that have removed their modifications to please return them and stick with us a bit longer. With your cooperation, the summer of 2006 will see some changes on this site.

As more information becomes available it will be posted. In fact, I hope to have some information for you next week. Until then please work with the staff instead of against them. They want what is best for this site as much as you do.

[Zachariah]

Hear Hear

[Roms]

Thank you, getting back to this type of a "helping" mentality is good for all parties involved.

[The Chief]

Thanks for the update :D

[Bhuwan]

hey im all for helping anyone!

[Dr.Viggy]

i'm real new here (barely 2 months) and i'm just learning the ways of vbulletin and php as a whole. i try to put in my 2 cents on the areas i know when someone has a problem and i appreciate the help i get form the coders/designers/experts/etc. if it wasn't for this site and all the people on it, then i'd be using a stock, out of the box vbulletin site. i hope to give more back as i learn more as well. thanks to the staff for noticing other's concerns and taking action so we can all stick around and help each other make our respective sites individual successes

[Dean C]

It's going to take a lot more than a staff restructure to change the general feeling in the community. It's going to need a change in their mentality.

And to the new mods here, don't fall victim to the ego which has consumed so many of the staff members here, myself included for a while.

[Logikos]

With that said Wayne, I will return to help and support the community with what you guys have taught me in the past. I feel that my thread had arose some major hell and I feel bad for it. I hope no one thinks badly about me now, but I was just trying to express how I felt. Anyways, I'm happy to hear that this is taking place and I would like to help in anyway possiable. I'll start with releasing and supporting my hacks again.

[Corriewf]

How about giving vBCast is own forum like what was agreed on by all the staff here except the one person that ran their mouth to add fuel to the fire, Zach.

We didn't want to start doing BBCast and talk about all the bulletin softwares, as we prefer vbulletin, but after being dragged through the dirt for so long.

I love how we were told to start our own board for a show that is dedicated to your software that we work sooo hard on.

[Logikos]

Corrie, nothing personal. But your not helping any more if your just going to name names and point fingers when you post. Thats what this thread is trying to prevent. :)

[Corriewf]

Corrie, nothing personal. But your not helping any more if your just going to name names and point fingers when you post. Thats what this thread is trying to prevent. :)


Funny that you say that... You know you will never become a mod because you have vbhackers.....

[Freesteyelz]

this site needs to get back to a member-helping-members mentality

and

Help each other. Who knows, but that person who knows absolutely no PHP code might be an awesome accountant or publicist that can help you down the road. Everyone is more than a handle and a userid.

and

The mentality of coders vs. non-coders has to end.


These points stuck out for me. Your post was well articulated, Wayne.

[Lottis]

Funny that you say that... You know you will never become a mod because you have vbhackers.....
Is it better if it comes from me?:cool:
Fore the record, i see your point.
Originally Posted by Wayne Luke
this site needs to get back to a member-helping-members mentality

and

Help each other. Who knows, but that person who knows absolutely no PHP code might be an awesome accountant or publicist that can help you down the road. Everyone is more than a handle and a userid.

and

The mentality of coders vs. non-coders has to end.

I am very happy to read this, Wayne Luke.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Funny that you say that... You know you will never become a mod because you have vbhackers.....Corrie,

This thread is to set a positive attitude here. Your post doesn't help in this.

Keep this thread a general thread about how to improve the attitude here on the board, and refrain yourself from making statements about other people.

Thank you.

[dilbert]

As a pure non-coder, and a truly php-challenged user, I greatly appreciate the work that everyone here does.
It really makes me happy when I can install something and get it to work the way the designer intended. And sometimes that doesn't work out, and I am inpressed with the help I get here. I don't post much, but I come here a lot to read and learn.
This is really a fabulous community.
Often when I install mods, I will show friends and say "can you beleive how terrific this new tool and, and even better, can you beleive it is free".
I really enjoy this site and hope all of the exisiting talented coders stay and nuture the upcoming folks.

[Xenon]

I hope no one thinks badly about me now, but I was just trying to express how I felt.

Let me say, i question your methods, but apart from that i have had always a good contact to you, and hope that this will go on. So let's move on! :)

[Ohiosweetheart]

With that said Wayne, I will return to help and support the community with what you guys have taught me in the past. I feel that my thread had arose some major hell and I feel bad for it. I hope no one thinks badly about me now, but I was just trying to express how I felt. Anyways, I'm happy to hear that this is taking place and I would like to help in anyway possiable. I'll start with releasing and supporting my hacks again.

no bad feelings at all! On the contrary, your thread helped to bring about real change here. I, for one, am glad you spoke out.

[Ranma2k]

well i hope this will improve everything around here :)
one thing for sure i'll will still support who ever need any

[Snake]

I'd love to help the other members in here so no worries, Master! :)

[Iain M]

good post :)

i help out when i can :)

[noppid]

That is pure crap and you know it Wayne.

I'm the man that your so called community of so called helpful staff ganged up on and removed the work of because of one line of code once. I can cite many other examples of your staff acting like jerks with your support. Shall I go on?

Don't shove down my throat that we need to act a certain way. You and your staff have set the tone by example. Your little post there will do nothing to change things here. You have to change first and your posts make it clear that will never happen.

You come out of the wood work when your little henchmen fail to clean up their messes and it happens too frequently. Either get invoilved everyday, or get out completely. Your form of management has failed the ORG time and time again.

Please stop it with your community concern, your care about your little click and their self serving opportunities only.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Noppid, on all levels (Jelsoft/Staff/Coders/regular members) people are working at the moment to find suggestions to make some radical changes to make this a better place in the future.

I am sure your suggestions will be taken into consideration when things are discussed.

[Wayne Luke]

I am not managing this site and I never have. I am a liaison between this site and Jelsoft. I help to pass information both ways. If people have a problem with the staff, then they need to contact me directly.

If an addon is removed, it is because it was determined to be in the best interest of Jelsoft's customers as a whole. If you felt that was unjust then you should have made your case directly to me and explained why instead of doing nothing but complaining on the site. It is as simple as that.

The direct management of the site is run by the volunteers here. The goal was and still is to build a community. Something which never really happened here. Otherwise there wouldn't be arguments in this thread. It wasn't some sort of demand and I feel those complaining in this thread didn't read the entire thing.

Quite frankly if you are that dissatisfied with the site Noppid, I would prefer that you not participate at all instead of doing nothing but spreading hatred and vitriole. It is time for people to let the past go and rebuild for the future.

[noppid]

Noppid, on all levels (Jelsoft/Staff/Coders/regular members) people are working at the moment to find suggestions to make some radical changes to make this a better place in the future.

I am sure your suggestions will be taken into consideration when things are discussed.

I long ago stopped making suggestions after being told the same thing many times in the past, sir. That is why myself and many other's have resorted to this form of force change by embarressment tactic I'd venture to guess.

It serves two purposes, we vent and maybe get an importantant message out. I will say that the ORG has been very indulgent in entertaining it. However, our tactics nor anyone in any branch of the internal staff have been able to reign in the young and arrogant within your organization. You can be certain we play off those attitudes as I noted in my post to Wayne.

So I will not hold my breath while the internal wheels turn. I've seen the tread wearing for a long time on that wheel.

Thank you for the polite reply.

I am not managing this site and I never have. I am a liaison between this site and Jelsoft. I help to pass information both ways. If people have a problem with the staff, then they need to contact me directly.

If an addon is removed, it is because it was determined to be in the best interest of Jelsoft's customers as a whole. If you felt that was unjust then you should have made your case directly to me and explained why instead of doing nothing but complaining on the site. It is as simple as that.

The direct management of the site is run by the volunteers here. The goal was and still is to build a community. Something which never really happened here. Otherwise there wouldn't be arguments in this thread. It wasn't some sort of demand and I feel those complaining in this thread didn't read the entire thing.

Quite frankly if you are that dissatisfied with the site Noppid, I would prefer that you not participate at all instead of doing nothing but spreading hatred and vitriole. It is time for people to let the past go and rebuild for the future.

Well, coming in and micro managing is not something you do well. A simple search will prove that.

Don't make this about me. That is the pinicle of this whole mess Wanye and when you pick on me personally, you are part of the problem. I have an obligation to pick on you and will continue to exercise it as long as I feel you do a lousy job.

As for staying away, that statement makes it obvious that you are not involved enough in the operations you are responsible to Jelsoft for. If you were doing your job, you'd know I don't hang out here.

So do us all a favor, like I said in the first post, lead by example and clean up your act. If you are supposed to be a liaison, at least take the initiative to know what you are working with rather then come in here once every three months or so to put out a fire while you have no idea of the big picture. Treat everyone with respect, even if they disagree with you.

You can't really upset me much more then you have in the past. I deal with it fine. But if you want to make me your huckleberry, have at it. I can take it.

However, this being your house, I don't expect you to allow it. It's more likely you'll follow suite of those that took their ball and left by removing the topic at some point.

But have no fear, I've wasted enough time on this matter and will move on. I just wanted the historical foot note.

Good luck.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Noppid, if you have problems with how a Moderator handles something, you put your case in the hands of an Admin.
If you feel that the Admins are also not listening to you, contact the Jelsoft liason, ie Wayne.
If you have complaints about him, contact his boss, ie. Kier.

Please stop fighting out your personal historical differences on the board. Especially if been asked to keep this thread dedicated to positive input to change things for the better in the future.

You state you don't hang out here anymore, if that is the case, then i don't see why you feel so strong about making points in a thread about the future of this site.

[Gaskell]

<i>*Goes back to the original post*</i>

I'm new to vB.org, and struggled with basic HTML when I tried learning it. I dont even want to attempt PHP with my lack of knowledge of everything else. However, I like to think that people here do help others.

Even with no coding knowledge, I can install a hack/modification and get it working. I can put all of the files in the right place and then work out how to actually use the mod. That is better than some fresh newbies to the software, so if someone asks something that sounds stupid and "n00bish" to the coders, I will actually help out, even if it means actually installing a hack that I wouldnt use on a test site, just to be friendly. We were all in the same boat at some time in our pasts, so it feels right to go full cycle (being new getting help, learning from others, learning to code, making the first mod then helping others who are new to the game).

As has been said (I think), communities help each other and this is a community.

[joeychgo]

Noppid, if you have problems with how a Moderator handles something, you put your case in the hands of an Admin.
If you feel that the Admins are also not listening to you, contact the Jelsoft liason, ie Wayne.
If you have complaints about him, contact his boss, ie. Kier.

Please stop fighting out your personal historical differences on the board. Especially if been asked to keep this thread dedicated to positive input to change things for the better in the future.

You state you don't hang out here anymore, if that is the case, then i don't see why you feel so strong about making points in a thread about the future of this site.



Quite frankly if you are that dissatisfied with the site Noppid, I would prefer that you not participate at all instead of doing nothing but spreading hatred and vitriole. It is time for people to let the past go and rebuild for the future.


Marco - Wayne - The tone and attitude in your posts is a big part of what I think is the problem around here. You just told Noppid to keep his opinions to himself because it doesnt fit in what you want to accomplish.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that is making .org into something people are complaining about. Instead of trying to mend fences, your telling him his opinion isnt important. How does that help?

Is this how you felt when LiveWire made his original post?

I am not trying to jump on you guys, I am only trying to illustrate what I see as one of the problems. Instead, I want to suggest that you ask yourself why Noppid and others feel this way.

[Guest190829]

Marco - Wayne - The tone and attitude in your posts is a big part of what I think is the problem around here. You just told Noppid to keep his opinions to himself because it doesnt fit in what you want to accomplish.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that is making .org into something people are complaining about. Instead of trying to mend fences, your telling him his opinion isnt important. How does that help?

Is this how you felt when LiveWire made his original post?

I am not trying to jump on you guys, I am only trying to illustrate what I see as one of the problems. Instead, I want to suggest that you ask yourself why Noppid and others feel this way.


I belive it's more of the fact that it is not on topic with this thread. From what I can see, Noppids problems seem to be on a personal level, rather than on a global level (like the current issues raised), however, as I don't know the full story, I'm not permitted to make any judgements or statements. Noppid, as Marco pointed out, there is a hierarchy of whom you can contact if you feel you are being treated unfairly.

[joeychgo]

I belive it's more of the fact that it is not on topic with this thread. From what I can see, Noppids problems seem to be on a personal level, rather than on a global level (like the current issues raised), however, as I don't know the full story, I'm not permitted to make any judgements or statements. Noppid, as Marco pointed out, there is a hierarchy of whom you can contact if you feel you are being treated unfairly.

Well, dont you think this could have been handled in PM instead of publically slapping him down - twice?

See, it makes people afraid to say whats really on their mind. Not only Noppid, but also others that might read. Livewire felt it necessary to make the statement - "I hope no one thinks badly about me now, but I was just trying to express how I felt." - These are all indicators.

Im not trying to jump on the staff or anyone else here. I am only trying to illustrate what I see as one of the problems.

[SaN-DeeP]

good post wayne

[Dan]

How about giving vBCast is own forum like what was agreed on by all the staff here except the one person that ran their mouth to add fuel to the fire, Zach.


We didn't want to start doing BBCast and talk about all the bulletin softwares, as we prefer vbulletin, but after being dragged through the dirt for so long.

I love how we were told to start our own board for a show that is dedicated to your software that we work sooo hard on.

Hmmm.... I think the reason Zachery is rather not happy with you is because that time you called him and impersonated ME and tried to get vBulletin 3.6.x information out of him. I think that's very immature and not worth you getting anything really from Jelsoft.

[Logikos]

I remember hearing about that. teehee

[Daniel]

Thanks for the update. I look forward on seeing things return to normal.

[Wayne Luke]

Marco - Wayne - The tone and attitude in your posts is a big part of what I think is the problem around here. You just told Noppid to keep his opinions to himself because it doesnt fit in what you want to accomplish.

I said if he was that unhappy, then maybe he should look elsewhere. If there had been a suggestion in his post instead of a personal attack then I would listen.

I honestly don't have any problem with him or anyone else on this site. If something happens, it is not done for personal reasons.

[Brandon Sheley]

I've tried to help out those that I can. and even tho I've used vb almost 2 years now I still don't know 1/2 of what some of the coders know..

all I know is that I'm very appreciative of this site and its resources..

-loco

[akanevsky]

Thanks for the post, hopefully you'll actually bring substantial changes,
cause it's no longer possible to peacefully reside on this site. :(

[PennylessZ28]

this can be solved if everyone just unzipped their pants, got a ruler and took a picture, then we'd all know who is the biggest prick :) hehe

[Mosh]

Thanks for saying that Wayne, this site is all about members helping members and that is what a lot of people around here seem to have forgotten.

I said in a previous post (Erwin stepping down) that I have not posted because I did not want to add oil to the flames, there seemed to be no point because the people involved seemed to have forgotten that one fact, that we are a group of people (all of use vB admins) that have come together to help each other out.

One of the reasons I participate here and give a little back too is because of the amount of help and knowledge I have gotten from this site, I only ever use the official site for my updates or occationally to help out a little.

For a while now, things have been spiralling out of control, and fingers are pointing everywhere. What we should be doing in my opinion is seeing what needs to be done to fix it and just fix it, recriminations and fingerpointing do not help at all, we all know what the situation is, what we need to do if fix the problems, and hopefully what Wayne and the staff here have said are followed by positive actions to rectifiy the problems here.

It really should not have gotten to the stage where coders are removing modifications and admins are stepping down, but saying that we need to move forward and do so positively.

I think the finger pointing has had it's day and I for one am fed up of it, we need to move forward from it and get on with making this site what it was a couple of years ago, a place where members help members, and not members demanding things and thinking it is their god given right to have them straight away is also an attitude I would like us all to move away from too.

If a member helps you out, it common courtesy to thank them for the effort they put into helping you out. Also remember if a hack author supports his hack or not the choice is up to them, they have gone to a lot of effort to give to you in the first place, asking nicely for support will get a better response than demanding support and being rude about it.

Conversely, hack authors should not be rude or put down members because they don't know what they are doing (remember we were all newbies once, and not all of us can code), I know it can get frustrating but blowing of members who require help does not help maintain a healthy attitude on these forums and we are here after all to help members out, are we not??? (as well as getting helped out ourselves and forming new friendships and associations).

I think I have used up more than my 2c worth, but have hopefully put me view across on how this forum has nearly lost it primary focus, and that is to help members help themselves and others.

[rjordan]

I have seen some things go on here that I certainly do not agree with by staff and by users. The vB.org/JelSoft team seems to be in here getting things changed. The only people getting hurt now are the people that utilize the modifications here that are being pulled as well as those that have (until now) had a very good outlook on this site and those that are now stirring up more trouble.

Let the process work. Don't be hasty and remove hacks unnecessarily. If you have a problem with how things have happened in the past, PM the issues to the respective persons, but don't rehash problems that have already outlasted their original reason. You will only be doing yourself continued disservice to your own respectability... whether it be staff or otherwise.

(... now I wait for the flames... Bar-B-Que anyone?)

[Kirk Y]

Being a somewhat... challenged PHP user, the help that the community provides myself and others with is what keeps us coming again and again. I complete agree with you Wayne -- and appreciate the update. I'm sure I speak for the rest of the community when I say that we eagerly await the brand-spanking new vB.org.

[Webmist]

Just wanted to put in my 2c piece and say that with any community of this size you are going to have problems. Tell me who doesn't. How you deal with them will show just how mature you can be. I am one of those 'newbie php' people and let me tell you I may be blonde but I'm not stupid. I think the master degree and 3 languages I speak qualifies me to have at least a little bit of brain power.

Most members here in the community that doesn't know php or vb or mysql let alone what they stand for look to you guys to help them out and learn. We all have to start somewhere and I for one am grateful for this community and a few others or I wouldn't have VB I'd still have PHPBB. I know a dirty work here. But it's true.

With what I've learned picking, putting, and dismembering these modification to get them to work has really been a huge help and I wanted to say thanks to all the people here that do help out. We have to be adult enough here to find solutions to the problems. Calling each other names and whining just makes people think your a two year old. There is a way for everything to work and with so many 'smart' people it should be no problem finding an answer.

Look up evolution and see what that word means.

Just my 2c and I'm sticking to it.
Thanks very much. **going to click install**

[Corriewf]

Hmmm.... I think the reason Zachery is rather not happy with you is because that time you called him and impersonated ME and tried to get vBulletin 3.6.x information out of him. I think that's very immature and not worth you getting anything really from Jelsoft.


Why would I want info when I already know whats coming out..... I will no go into details, but I don't need info from him or anyone else.

[Dean C]

Why would I want info when I already know whats coming out..... I will no go into details, but I don't need info from him or anyone else.

This wouldn't have anything to do with a 52 gun 4th rate HMS vessel that was put of use in 1862 would it?

[DivisionByZero]

Wow! I never expected to hear such positive things from vBulletin. The first post in this thread applies to me 100%.

I've removed most of my stuff, and haven't even bothered to post any of my other mods since then, including the highly anticipated Groups mod (yahoo groups functionality). I had first considered releasing that particular mod as source, until one of the vB.org moderators began to attack and insult me for no valid reason, claiming that all my works are copyright infringement, license agreement breaches and more.

It's that same mentality that makes me not want to share my hard work here, and even give up foruming altogether. I've pretty much moved on to Internet Radio, though my station's site uses vB.

In summary, the modifications I've posted here, up to and including abandoned 3.0 hacks i've ported over I've done so without expectation of any compensation and for the good of all vBulletin operators and end-users. If this community were to become more focused and less egocentric, i'd be happy to put my two cents back in the pot.

[Corriewf]

This wouldn't have anything to do with a 52 gun 4th rate HMS vessel that was put of use in 1862 would it?

Don't you mean the 38 gun 5th rate captured from the French in 1811

[DrkFusion]

I myself have not been an active participant of vBorg for a very long time. I joined awhile ago at which time many things were nicely setup and close-knit. I guess with the large increase in new vB members tied with ambitious members, somewhere along the line I lost the passion to participate as I did.

vB.org used to be the forum that I used to come to and have interesting and helpful discussions about learning how to Code, there were people who really did want to see normal members go on to become coders, designers and what not -- when those normal members (like me) learned how to code and design and such somewhere along that we didn't take on the duty of passing on those skills to others (that is what this community was all about).

I honestly left for various reasons: I felt as though the community became full of moderators/hack coders who thought themselves above others (just because they know something over others). In addition, something that I have not mentioned to anyone, when I tried to help with vBCSS (a project that was initiated by Wayne and Kier) I was immediatly bashed by some members for trying to 'steal' a leading role -- honestly that hurt and I decided to just slip away and forget about it.

I was wrong on my part, I should have talked to people like Wayne, Kier and others who are always there to help and that is exactly what anyone who has any concerns should do.

Best wishes to everyone who are trying their best to see vB.org return to its glory.

[BamaStangGuy]

I have rarely got answers to my questions in the Modification Questions sections. I have a thread in the 3.5 Modification Question forum right now that is very detailed and not one response. Pretty aggrevating because I know it is something a knowledgable coder would be able to answer.

[Billspaintball]

I have a thread in the 3.5 Modification Question forum right now that is very detailed and not one response. Pretty aggrevating because I know it is something a knowledgable coder would be able to answer.
If this is about the thread about modifiying functions_online.php then your attitude of expecting an instant response is one that pisses many coders off. That post has received a couple of replies within 24 hours, yet you couldnot wait even a day for a response, you just come and whinge about it here before anyone has a chance to answer it.
Shame on you :(

[TECK]

When this site was first conceived, the addon authors went out of their way to help others. They didn't look down on you if you didn't know PHP and thought that it was against the vBulletin philosophy to do so. vBulletin is created in a way where you do not need to know how to write PHP code or run a MySQL Query.

In order to support these customers, this site needs to get back to a member-helping-members mentality.
I wish good luck to all new staff members.
Honestly, I hope the things will change the way it used to be 4-5 years ago.
I'm sure you miss the also those times...

When I tried to help with vBCSS (a project that was initiated by Wayne and Kier) I was immediatly bashed by some members for trying to 'steal' a leading role -- honestly that hurt and I decided to just slip away and forget about it...
I remember similar issues also... for instance people rating my threads all the time with one star, just to piss me off. Read the second post:
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=39482
And many others...

However, there were very good people also into the community... coders devoted to vB passion, not money making machines.
I just read one of my old tutorials, people used to be really kind and friendly...
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=38545

Arunan, you always had my respect, you are a great kid.

Floren

[MThornback]

Wether or not this initatve is effective is going to be decided in part by people letting go of the past and making a fresh start....forgive, but don't forget if your not a big enough person to just make an outright clean break....don't drag it down, be supportive...but remember how you got burned in the past and don't put yourself there again.

Personally i'm a big fan of the steps being taken around here....and I thank everyone whos a part of them for making it happen.

[DivisionByZero]

the mods still harass me, so i just got done deleting all my hacks. i give up.

[64North]

As an outsider, all I see is bruised ego.
If coders want to remove their hacks and start a community elsewhere, so be it, let them create a community where they can be the prima donna. There will always be more talented coders, and ORG will always be the first and foremost resource for vBulletin.

One can't please everyone all the time. It's great to make changes to advance this community, but there is simply no need to sweet talk every single coder. Every hack can and will eventually be made by someone else, every coder is replacable.

The whole "I will take my code and leave" attitude is, while at times understandable, logically flawed. You are not punishing the ORG moderators by removing your code, you are punishing the very people for whom you created your code in the first place.

ORG realized that there is a problem, perhaps that realization came too late for some, but it came nonetheless. Now ORG is working on fixing the problem best they can. If that is not enough for some, then by all means, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The site will never be what it used to be years ago. Net culture has changed too much for that. Where in the beginning technically inclined folks frequented this site, it has now grown to a consumer oriented community. Jelsoft is in a large part to "blame" for that by saying "we don't support this, go to vBulletin.org if you want to get this one" on the vBulletin.com forum. Thus Jelsoft implied that the ORG people are the ones who will help someone out. While users can get help at ORG, it has also created a sense of entitlement among users, entitlement to receive support for every possibe question they may have here, and then those users get upset that there is no such entitlement.

One thing that would IMHO help to improve things is to advise Jelsoft staff on COM that if they send people over here, they make it clear in the thread on COM that ORG is a site run by volunteers, that one may or may not get support here, and that there is no entitlement to receive assistance.

I think a clear set of ORG community standards is also in order, something that explicitly states that no one is obligated to help someone else and that it is the users responsibility to do some very basic research on their own before posting "trivial" questions.

I am as non-PHP as it gets, and I did recently have a problem for which I created a post. vb 3.6.x - how to change welcome email sender? (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=119596) I received some feedback that while I did appreciate it didn't help me all that much, so I looked into it myself, and whle there may be a more elegant solution to my problem, I did come up with my own solution, and I posted it.

The coders vs. non-coders problem can only be solved if the non-coders understand that they are not entitled to support.

I hope that those coders who left, do return to ORG, even if they do not get their way all the time. It's imho counterproductive to see all these odd vB sites pop up, I LOL'ed so hard when I went to a vb site that proclaims itself to be a vb FAQ resource, and it is littered with Amazom.com affiliate ads for books that have nothing to do with vb, coding, or anything Internet at all.

How low could one sink to try and monetize from this ORG community issue, whoever runs that site should be ashamed (and ORG should remove all references to it from ORG).

Anyway, things got messed up, no doubt about that.
The mess-up was acknowledged, and damage control is underway. What more can one ask for? An apology? Perhaps there should be an apology from some to some, but please do realize that all of those involved in this drama are a tiny fraction of the ORG userbase, the rest of the users is merrily chugging along, and will do so till the end of time.

While it would be nice if everyone's opinion on everything mattered all the time, the fact of life is that it simply doesn't. If someone can't live with that their opinion is not all that important, then that person has likely bigger problems than any ORG issue could possibly be.

The best we can do is give our opinion, hope that it will be considered, and move on if it did not get the consideration we thought it deserved.

Well, that's my take on it anyway, and how much could it possibly matter since I am an ORG noob, eh?

[EasyTarget]

I thikn that's a good suggestion for .com. I think they do refer people to .org in a way which gives the results you mentioned.