"Coders discussion" forum is now a private forum.

[Brad]

This post is to inform all users that starting today the Coder's discussion (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=109974) forum will be restricted to users that have attained the Coder user title. Under the old way of doing things anyone could join the coder's usergroup and post in forum. We felt this was leading to many 'how do I' questions that were better suited to other forums.

- How do I become a coder?

The user titles are based on the number of modifications you release and the number of installs they receive. If you contribute to the community by posting modifications you'll receive the title in time.

- I already have a coder title but can not see the forum!

Go to one of your modification threads, and click the install or uninstall link. After you do this you should be able to see the forum again (it's located under the 'Big Boards' forum).

[Corriewf]

How long for the Senior Member forum?

[Borgs8472]

I am close to swearing right now and getting myself in trouble.

Suffice to saw I'm not happy about this. :(

[amykhar]

Thank you, Brad. I'm thrilled to have a place to get away from it all for a little while and hang out with people who share my passion for playing with this software.

[Code Monkey]

Thank you very much. As for the ones that have questions and such, there is already sufficient forums available for many topics including coding.

[Borgs8472]

< martyrs his template hack to get in >

mwahaha!

[Logikos]

This is great news! I should be hanging out in that forum much more now. :)

[Darat]

Will "non-coders" be able to view the section?

[Developer]

good news :)

[Tony G]

Will "non-coders" be able to view the section?
That's the way it used to be. I think this annoucement means you won't be able to view it.

[Darat]

That's the way it used to be. I think this annoucement means you won't be able to view it.

I thought that was how it was.

Personally I don't think it's a great idea. Totally understand preventing us plebes from being able to post until "we've proved our worth" but I'd have thought for people like me (dabbling here and there with our own customisations) it would have been good to be able to see what the elite are doing to help us pick up some pointers and the like.

[amykhar]

Darat, the problem is that people don't restrict questions and comments to posts. They go to the PM system. This means that code I am discussing with another coder, that isn't designed or released for novice users, was still accessible by novices which was sort of pointless.

I am sure many of you have private forums on your boards for whatever reason. And, I'm sure you know that other people feel a bit left out because they can't get in. That's just the way these things go sometimes.

It is a GOOD idea to keep the coders happy here and give them a place to socialize. If they have a place to hang out here, then they are more likely to come here daily and answer questions and such in the other forums.

[Darat]

As I say I don't think it is a good idea since it unnecessarily reduces the information available for the "non-coders" to learn from so we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Acers]

well i would have to agree also.
Its one thing reducing the section to just coders but not giving viewing access is not a good idea. Lot of "novice" users can benefit from looking at the discussion and learn. I thouught that was also one of the main motives of the .org community. As it is a lot of people develop codes themselves for their own sites and on custom basis (i might as well say that i also fall into that) but don't go on to release them. Thats not just selfish or not wanting to contribute, thats mostly cos of time not being there to support them for everyone who installs or maybe some other logical reason. You can punish a bit by not allowing posting but not even allowing viewing is a bit too hard and pointless..
my 2 cents...

[who is chris c]

i guess i need to put out some crappy modifications to get a coder status to read and learn. what about the sections that dont add to the coder status? its pointless for them to release styles or template mods since they dont affect that status. i think this takes away from the forum and def. makes it a more elitest atmosphere.

[amykhar]

Dumb question. Were y'all happy with vb.org before the private coders' forum was created? Nothing has changed for you.

The coders got a well deserved perk. We spend a lot of time helping others here and sharing our work. I don't think a private forum to hang out in is an inappropriate or excessive reward for our efforts.

[who is chris c]

amy no i havent been happy with .org in along time actually. i thought this was going to be getting it back on the right foot in my book but now that this happened it droped it even lower.

edit
and i've helped out many people in the past on their problems but because i dont release hacks i cant benifit. it makes me wonder about this place...

[sabret00the]

if i'm not wrong, anyone who wants to check out the private coders' forum can just go to their admincp, click a button and get access right?

[who is chris c]

not anymore sabre

[sabret00the]

oh well, sucks not to be a coder :p

joking of course, if that's truly the case you're not missing anything, one of the pricipal rules is NO general discussion. i think at the moment, it's just one of those things where people want to be able to discuss things in depth without having to worry about anyone bugging them for the code or what not.

ps: if anyone is that desperate to see the coder's forum, i'll be happy to find some sort of mini mod on my hard drive and allow them to release it.

[Chris M]

As for "not being able to learn" now that it's private, how do you think we learnt?

Nowadays you all expect tutorials and people to jump at your every question but back in the day it was try, fail, try again, and if you really got stuck hope someone would help you :)

You learnt the hard way, you learnt by yourself without the help of piggybacking off others, and you learnt by doing...

Chris

[Freesteyelz]

There are the highs and lows for both sides of the discussion. This community has ample of forums for questions and comments so it's all good.

[Razasharp]

I think it's a great decision and Admin will see that for themselves by looking at the new level of activity :)

The coders will still be around to help us - have they ever not done that? I think the coders in this community are rather special, they're not just going to stop helping us lot because they now have a private forum which, in all honesty they had elsewhere anyway, least now its here at vborg, so means they'll be hanging round more too on the rest of the board.

All we need now is to make the big boards section private :p

:bunny:

[Mr Chad]

How come i cant see it anymore? (im a coder i think)

[amykhar]

As Brad posted, click an install or uninstall link on one of your mods.

[john1744]

What about allowing people to view it, but allowing users not in the Coders usergroup to make threads or posts?

That way we can't bother you guys, but we can still pick up on some of the ideas you guys are bouncing off each other.

[Lea Verou]

Awsome, thanks!! :D

[Revan]

Besides, it's not like we all psot tutorials in there that we don't want to share with those that need them.
We just throw out ideas and discussions and expect to get a tech response, not "release this plix" and "omg soo cool". There's really nothing that can be learnt there - if we want help we post in the PHP forum, if we want to help we post in the Tutorials section.

[Logikos]

I stand behind everything amykhar has said, It's nice to beable to have a forum to talk to just other programmers. There are plently of forums that will help you learn. I learned alot since I've been here, and half the forums that are here now, where never there back then. vB.org has been open for 5 years now, about time we have our little corner! :)

[Darat]

As for "not being able to learn" now that it's private, how do you think we learnt?

Nowadays you all expect tutorials and people to jump at your every question but back in the day it was try, fail, try again, and if you really got stuck hope someone would help you :)

You learnt the hard way, you learnt by yourself without the help of piggybacking off others, and you learnt by doing...

Chris

And when I was a lad we didn't even have shoes we had to wrap the skins of potatoes on our feet.... ;)

The fact that you may not have had a certain facility or resource available when you were learning should not be a reason to deny others access to a resource.

My point is that one of the best ways of learning is to watch others "do" and to learn how experienced people actually tackle a problem and it's a shame that some of that is now not being made available to the "non-coders".

[Ziki]

This post is to inform all users that starting today the Coder's discussion (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=109974) forum will be restricted to users that have attained the Coder user title. Under the old way of doing things anyone could join the coder's usergroup and post in forum. We felt this was leading to many 'how do I' questions that were better suited to other forums.

- How do I become a coder?

The user titles are based on the number of modifications you release and the number of installs they receive. If you contribute to the community by posting modifications you'll receive the title in time.

- I already have a coder title but can not see the forum!

Go to one of your modification threads, and click the install or uninstall link. After you do this you should be able to see the forum again (it's located under the 'Big Boards' forum).


I did as you said and still cannot see it

[Xenon]

you must have clicked on another hack, because i clicked on one of your hacks and you have been updated immediatelly, so system works

[Snake]

Thank you very much, Brad.

[Ziki]

you must have clicked on another hack, because i clicked on one of your hacks and you have been updated immediatelly, so system works

I did !Still doesn't show

[Allan]

Good idea, work it ;)

[amykhar]

Darat, let me be blunt, if the non-coders could still view it, it wouldn't be a resource either because we wouldn't use it. There would be no point.

The userpage mod is a prime example of why I need a coders forum. I released it in beta to get an idea on what I wanted to do with it based on the input from real coders. The damn thing took off and became popular. And, even though it was in beta, it mistakenly made it to the poll for hot mod. Then, it won.

The sheer number of feature requests and user errrors - you wouldn't believe how many people don't upload files or run install scripts and then scream that a mod doesn't work - killed my interest in that mod entirely.

Since people won't read install instructions and won't stay away from mods that are beyond their abilities, we need a place to play with code bits and work out issues.

The feedback we get from non-coders is useless in many cases. People click the install button two seconds after a mod is posted and tell us how wonderful it is. Excuse me, but did you even install it and run it first? I've had mods that had an installation script error get dozens of thank yous before anybody came along and said the install script doesn't work. Then, we get people who don't read what a mod is for and start asking totally off the wall questions. And, we get the people I mentioned above, who don't follow any directions - basic stuff like upload the files.

[hambil]

They have a point. Perhaps a middle ground would be that we (as the coder group) agree to share the responsibility of producing how-tos and tutorials from anything interesting that comes out of our conversations. I think the tutorial section is far more useful to the novice than a rambling technical conversation anyway.

[Code Monkey]

My idea is that someone close this thread. :D

[Princeton]

They have a point. Perhaps a middle ground would be that we (as the coder group) agree to share the responsibility of producing how-tos and tutorials from anything interesting that comes out of our conversations. I think the tutorial section is far more useful to the novice than a rambling technical conversation anyway.
we are waiting for your tutuorials...

[hambil]

we are waiting for your tutuorials...
I haven't been active here very long. Give me time ;)

[Borgs8472]

Post your best anti troll hacks! :D

[Freesteyelz]

The feedback we get from non-coders is useless in many cases.

*Even while I'm not in this particular discussion :classic: ...* I understand your frustration. Yet, us "non-coders", do come in various colors and flavors. :)

As someone pointed out earlier, we learn from one another. Sure, there are some who can manage solely on their own "know-how" but at what pace? This community strives because we all have a common interest with our vB's. I can tell you honestly that I have much respect and appreciation for all of you who contribute to make our default vB into something spectacular. As much learning I have with vB's protocol I owe a great amount from reading, taking time with routines/scripts and asking questions. I do with what I can. Keep doing what you do and keep the creativity alive. :)

[SaN-DeeP]

What about allowing people to view it, but allowing users not in the Coders usergroup to make threads or posts?

That way we can't bother you guys, but we can still pick up on some of the ideas you guys are bouncing off each other.
this is a nice suggestion as well.

[Azhrialilu]

For what my opinion is worth I don't care if the coders have one forum or three thousand forums that I can't access :) As was pointed out elsewhere by someone (sorry, I can't remember who - it may have been Amy :) ) we all, as forum owners, have forums on our sites that are usergroup based and not accessible by the general masses and it's not like anything that goes on in these forums is going to affect the rest of us - except in maybe a good way - as we could see some of the top coders here work together on some ideas and bring a new stage of things to vB plug ins.

Give both them and the staff a break and let the coders have some space of their own. *sits back and awaits the flaming ;)*

[Logikos]

Thanks Azhrialilu. More users should see it that way but they don't.

Heres my additude towards the situation. I'm a coder and I went through alot of work and years of reading nonstop to be able to do what I can do now. I take the time out of my own day, to release mods I don't even use on my own sites, I create them out of a challange.

I ask myself... can I make this hack? Lets see if I can. I'm challenaging myself to create hacks I don't think I can make, and make them. Then I will share them with the rest of the community.

So years of studing, coding, and sharing my work should at least give me the option to go into a forum, where only coders like myself can access. If your not a coder, then start studying and learning like I did.

There are alot of selfish non-coders here. If you can't even take the fact that we would like a little corner to ourselfs, then don't bother using my hacks. It's people like you (non-coders who don't like the idea), that make me not want to release my work here.

[Darat]

....snip...

So years of studing, coding, and sharing my work should at least give me the option to go into a forum, where only coders like myself can access. If your not a coder, then start studying and learning like I did.


As I have said that is in my view a very weak reason to restrict access to a resource. When I was first learning to code, around 25 years ago, there were no Internet resources to use yet I don't think everyone should have to "start studying and learning like I did", the world changes.


There are alot of selfish non-coders here. If you can't even take the fact that we would like a little corner to ourselfs, then don't bother using my hacks. It's people like you (non-coders who don't like the idea), that make me not want to release my work here.

It is not a matter of not "take the fact that we would like a little corner to ourselfs" all I have pointed out is that it is shame that a potentially useful area, and by useful I mean an area that potentially would help and encouraging an even greater number of people to become "vb coders" is no longer available.

[Chris M]

The way I see it, is that this forum is designed for a complex level of learning and discussion that as a non-coder, it is pointless you being able to read it... Why? Because you won't understand, and you will need to ask questions...

Your arguement of a valid and useful resource becomes null and void for that very simple reason - If you are advanced enough to view it and understand it, you are advanced enough to release your code here and become a Coder, therefore invalidating any reasons as to why you can't see it any more...

Chris

[Logikos]

The way I see it, is that this forum is designed for a complex level of learning and discussion that as a non-coder, it is pointless you being able to read it... Why? Because you won't understand, and you will need to ask questions...

Your arguement of a valid and useful resource becomes null and void for that very simple reason - If you are advanced enough to view it and understand it, you are advanced enough to release your code here and become a Coder, therefore invalidating any reasons as to why you can't see it any more...

Chris
Ding Ding Ding!

[Darat]

The way I see it, is that this forum is designed for a complex level of learning and discussion that as a non-coder, it is pointless you being able to read it... Why? Because you won't understand, and you will need to ask questions...

Your arguement of a valid and useful resource becomes null and void for that very simple reason - If you are advanced enough to view it and understand it, you are advanced enough to release your code here and become a Coder, therefore invalidating any reasons as to why you can't see it any more...

Chris

Actually it doesn't - since as I commented there is a lot of educational benefit in just reading how experienced people tackle a problem.

Also another way to look at the why, where learning is concerned secrecy is not always the best approach: It could be that there are some very experienced and very good programmers who hang about here that for whatever reason haven't posted a hack and therefore the coders miss out on that groups programming experience.

[Logikos]

You wouldn't join a weight lifting competition that required you to pick up a 4-door sedan would you?

[Darat]

I don't think that is a good analogy - a nearer one would be not to let anyone not already a weight lifter even watch a weight lifting competition until they've become a weight lifter!

I think it is very reasonable to not allow "unqualified" people to actually participate given the stated reasons for having such a section, it's just I think it was (and that was how it was originally set up) a good resource for people wanting to learn - which as I have said is shame.

[Azhrialilu]

Not to be funny, but there are a million and one good resources out there for people wanting to learn how to code - access to one extra forum isn't gonna make someone an expert coder any faster.

[Darat]

Yes there are but not that many dealing with vBulletin coding, it's certainly not earth-shatteringly important - just a shame.

[Code Monkey]

It could be that there are some very experienced and very good programmers who hang about here that for whatever reason haven't posted a hack and therefore the coders miss out on that groups programming experience.

Then I have no interest in their opinion regarding vBulletin. If I want to discuss with good coders who don't give to this community then I will go to Sitepoint or other sites that offer a far more broad coding discussion than is available here.

[Azhrialilu]

Sorry, Darat but I just dont see why it's a big deal - there are enough forums on Vb.org to ask questions about vBulletin coding already.

I'm not a coder, so I don't have any vested interest in this forum, but I can see why they'd prefer to keep it quiet. Think about it, in public forum if one coder comes up with a new idea, 10 people instantly jump on them wanting to know when it'll be started, beta-tested, out for release... if they can discuss it in the relative quiet of a private forum, the chances are the idea will become a release faster.

I mean - would you demand micosoft not allow any private forums on their own site regarding new ideas - so you can watch how they develop their software? Don't think they'd agree to that somehow. Look what happened when they released some of the earlier versions of windows (ME in particular) because of the pressure to get it out - the bugs in it were outrageous - would you want all hacks released under the same kind of pressure - obviously slightly dilluted - here?

[Logikos]

Round n Round we go. I don't see this being open to non-coders now, so I wouldn't waste your time complaining. If you don't like the idea, go read some tutorials.

[Daniel]

If you don't like the idea, go read some tutorials.
That's what I've been doing for the past six months, looks like it finally paid off (I got the "Coder" status today :D)

[Code Monkey]

That's what I've been doing for the past six months, looks like it finally paid off (I got the "Coder" status today :D)

And found out there has only been two posts in there since it went private. :D

[Logikos]

And found out there has only been two posts in there since it went private. :D
Not quite. ;)

[Gio~Logist]

Now only is the coders forum a place for complex coding talk and such, however, it is also a place where coders can get advice from other coders. If other members are allowed to view this forum, useless posts may be made and such. Also, there are some things in which people feel more comfortable sharing with other coders (such as works in progress, etc.).

As far as learning how to code is concerned. I learned from studying other hacks and looking at some tutorials i found here. All the resources needed are here on this forum. What you do with the information and content is up to you.

[Guest190829]

If the Coder's Discussion forum was public it would just be a duplicate of the PHP/MYSQL/JS/XHTML forum and the General Modification Discussion forum. Honestly, there really isn't valuable resource that someone learning how to code would find useful. It's just Coders talking about their current projects and having a good time chatting with people who understand their frustrations and moments of joy in a coding view.

Those who want to learn and are having problems have the PHP/MYSQL/JS/XHTML forum.

My analogy of having the forum public:

It's like going to a book club and discussing a book amongst people who haven't read the book.

:)

-Danny

[Gio~Logist]

If the Coder's Discussion forum was public it would just be a duplicate of the PHP/MYSQL/JS/XHTML forum and the General Modification Discussion forum. There really isn't valuable resource that someone learning how to code would find useful, it's just Coder's talking about their projects and having a good time chatting with people who understand their frustrations and moments of joy in a coding view.

Those who want to learn and are having problems have the PHP/MYSQL/JS/XHTML forum.

My analogy of having the forum public:

It's like going to a book club and discussing a book amongst people who haven't read the book.

:)

-Danny

Bingo.

[Darat]

Sorry, Darat but I just dont see why it's a big deal - there are enough forums on Vb.org to ask questions about vBulletin coding already.



The only people who seem to think it is a big deal in this discussion are those that are arguing for the forum to now to be totally exclusive. :) All I have said is that it is a shame that one potentially useful resource is no longer available. I certainly haven't said it is a big deal or given the impression that I think it is a big deal.


I'm not a coder, so I don't have any vested interest in this forum, but I can see why they'd prefer to keep it quiet. Think about it, in public forum if one coder comes up with a new idea, 10 people instantly jump on them wanting to know when it'll be started, beta-tested, out for release... if they can discuss it in the relative quiet of a private forum, the chances are the idea will become a release faster.


I understand this and if you read my responses I have said I understand why, given the reason for the forum, they didn't want to allow everyone posting privileges.


I mean - would you demand micosoft not allow any private forums on their own site regarding new ideas - so you can watch how they develop their software? Don't think they'd agree to that somehow. Look what happened when they released some of the earlier versions of windows (ME in particular) because of the pressure to get it out - the bugs in it were outrageous - would you want all hacks released under the same kind of pressure - obviously slightly dilluted - here?


I haven't demanded anything, and again I don't think your analogy, especially given how some of the coders here have described how that forum is being used) is really an appropriate one.

Round n Round we go. I don't see this being open to non-coders now, so I wouldn't waste your time complaining. If you don't like the idea, go read some tutorials.

I haven't been complaining.

[bonjurkes]

The feedback we get from non-coders is useless in many cases. People click the install button two seconds after a mod is posted and tell us how wonderful it is. Excuse me, but did you even install it and run it first? I've had mods that had an installation script error get dozens of thank yous before anybody came along and said the install script doesn't work. Then, we get people who don't read what a mod is for and start asking totally off the wall questions. And, we get the people I mentioned above, who don't follow any directions - basic stuff like upload the files.

Are we the (members) only guilty one. All of the coders are perfect but members gives useless feedback?

I think you can remember, i installed inferno quiz and i uninstalled them bcs it is not a good idea for my board. I said thank you and few posts later i asked how to uninstall it bcs it left some parts behind of hack. (This is not only for that hack it was just an example)

And did i get a reply back?

NO!

You told me to uninstall all part of it. I already did, i am not dumb that much but i still didnt get a reply back from a coder.

That thing happened to me 4-5 hacks i installed (i mean not getting reply from the coder)

So you can right, maybe all of us not giving good feedback but hey think, how much of us can get a reply back from a coder when we give a good feedback?

I just want to ask it. You cant judge all of the members by judging only some part of the members.


I think being that forum is private for coders are good idea.But like others said we need tips too (members that try to code something)

[Lea Verou]

Hey something useful could come out of the staff forums too! Why not make them public? We could learn how to administer our forums better!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
bonjurkes inferno quiz is not amykhar's hack. She owes you no answer. Judging by even that one can see how "useful" the members can be in such a forum. :rolleyes:
Coders may not be perfect but at least they offer something to the community. What do members offer to justify the demands they have? Members come here, get, whine, annoy the coders even via IM and never give, although in some cases they have the ability to. At least be a little thankful :rolleyes:

[bonjurkes]

Hey something useful could come out of the staff forums too! Why not make them public? We could learn how to administer our forums better!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
bonjurkes inferno quiz is not amykhar's hack. She owes you no answer. Judging by even that one can see how "useful" the members can be in such a forum. :rolleyes:
Coders may not be perfect but at least they offer something to the community. What do members offer to justify the demands they have? Members come here, get, whine, annoy the coders even via IM and never give, although in some cases they have the ability to. At least be a little thankful :rolleyes:

michelle i know inferno is not Amy's hack and i know that she dont need to give answer for it too.I didnt say that to her.I told it to coder of the hack.

Most of members say thankyou and press install (i am sure pressing the install button is better than saying thank you)

I didnt get it. Amy says they only say thanx not give any feedback and you say it will be enough if they say thank you...

You mustnt think that all of the members must give back something.Most of us are giving feedback about hacks. I wont say anything if you call our feedbacks as whining :cross-eyed:

[Darat]

Hey something useful could come out of the staff forums too! Why not make them public? We could learn how to administer our forums better!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


That would be relevant to the point I have raised if this was forum about how to better administrate forums. As it is this forum (as far as I understand it) is a way of vBulletin promotion by encouraging people to tinker with the core-product.


...snip..
Coders may not be perfect but at least they offer something to the community. What do members offer to justify the demands they have? Members come here, get, whine, annoy the coders even via IM and never give, although in some cases they have the ability to. At least be a little thankful :rolleyes:

Without "non-coder" Members here what would be the point of releasing any hack or modification?

As for what do "non-coders" Members do (and I take from your post that non-coder Members are less welcome and lesser Members then "coders" is that right?) - well some of us at least do try to help when we can.

[Freesteyelz]

Umm...Please read my post (#42), Michelle. :)

Frankly, I think the people who contribute to the community deserve rewards/benefits; if one of them is in form of a private forum, cool. Let it be.

*Why I'm getting myself involved in a discussion (at 3:18am) that really is not important I haven't a clue. Sleep deprivation is real and an irritant.

[Darat]

Umm...Please read my post (#42), Michelle. :)

Frankly, I think the people who contribute to the community deserve rewards/benefits; if one of them is in form of a private forum, cool. Let it be.

*Why I'm getting myself involved in a discussion (at 3:18am) that really is not important I haven't a clue. Sleep deprivation is real and an irritant.


I'm confused - that section has now been made totally private as a reward? I didn't think that was the purpose of the section or the reason it has been totally closed to non-coders?

[Azhrialilu]

Of course, this whole argument could have been avoided if Xenon and the rest of vb.org had decided not to tell anyone about the forum in the first place and just sent a pm to the relevant usergroups. No one else would have known the forum existed and all this arguing back and forth would not have happened. But, they told everyone what they were going to do...... I wouldn't be surprised if they don't bother from this point on, nor would I blame them.

[Freesteyelz]

I'm confused - that section has now been made totally private as a reward? I didn't think that was the purpose of the section or the reason it has been totally closed to non-coders?

I've read the comments in this discussion and I have no issues with the reasons of wanting a private forum. My only reservation is the underlying bitterness that is transcending from both sides of the coin by some members of this community. Personally, I'd prefer investing my time more productively here. I'm in the discussion just because.

I call the coders private forum a reward/benefit because that's what it is; something positive. Constructive ideas can come about with members who are on the same wavelength. I'm not referring to skill but from collective thought.

I've been around forum communities for a while but with vB only a couple of months. I understand how things work and I'm not about to undermine decisions made, especially from one of the Admins I know and respect. *Sigh*...It's 4:07am now...

[Darat]

I've read the comments in this discussion and I have no issues with the reasons of wanting a private forum. My only reservation is the underlying bitterness that is transcending from both sides of the coin by some members of this community. Personally, I'd prefer investing my time more productively here. I'm in the discussion just because.



Well I would say reading the comments the bitterness seems to be mainly one-sided - all I have said for example is that I think it is shame because it potentially reduces the resources available for everyone. Yet on the "other side" it appears that there is a lot of resentment (in albeit a very small number of people) that more of us are not "coders", that we aren't thankful enough, that we shouldn't use hacks and so on. So I would agree that is a shame - I know if I did release a hack I'd want as many people as possible to use it - not just those I deemed somehow "worthy" but hey different people different strokes as they say.




I call the coders private forum a reward/benefit because that's what it is; something positive. Constructive ideas can come about with members who are on the same wavelength. I'm not referring to skill but from collective thought.

I've been around forum communities for a while but with vB only a couple of months. I understand how things work and I'm not about to undermine decisions made, especially from one of the Admins I know and respect. *
*Sigh*...It's 4:07am now...

I'm not trying to undermine any one and I've not even asked for the decision to be changed. Yet I do have have to say that personally it feels to me me that quite a few of the people who have participated in this discussion are of the opinion that non-coders such as myself should be grateful for whatever crumbs the "real Members" are willing to drop us and not even bother to express an opinion about something because our opinions are worthless.

I've just remembered that this is an announcement thread so perhaps if anyone wishes to continue this discussion we should do so in a more appropriate section of the forum?

[Freesteyelz]

I haven't named anyone nor singled anyone out. Discuss away is what I say. Anyway, I find that on the majority if you work with people they'll do the same in return. It's all cool with me.

[Paul M]

And found out there has only been two posts in there since it went private. :DI think your counting code is a bit buggy ;)

[Code Monkey]

I think your counting code is a bit buggy ;)

Was a joke bud.

[Revan]

I could understand the arguments against a private forum if stuff was shared in there. But the forum is only for discussing projects. I don't understand what's the valuable resource in that. The point about seeing how a coder tackles a problem is null and void, because if you know enough to understand the coding problem, you know enough to release stuff and thus earn a coder title. If you don't know enough code, it's just like me reading stuff in the Hexing forum on this Lineage II development forum Im on. I don't understand jack when they talk about push dword and whatnot, and I learn nothing from there.
I dare anyone to give me one valid resouce that could come out of the Coders forum that doesn't have its own forum already.

[Code Monkey]

It's like this. Everything coders do here is done during their own personal time. This is not a paid job, it's used up free time for the bennefit of others.

It's not too much to ask that we have an area of the forums where we are not simply a resource.

[Princeton]

I can't speak for others; but, I'll give you the reasons why I support it.
It's the Coders who make vb.org.
It's the Coders who create addons and/or modifications.In the long run, providing a private forum for coders will benefit vb.org as a whole.

Encourage participation amongst coders.

Without making it publicly available ... coders can ask questions and/or get ideas from other coders.Promote the creation of new addons.
Participation amongst coders will ignite the creation of more advanced addons -- which in their own way promotes vBulletin.Boost the time spent on vb.org.

We want to increase "activity" time by coders. The longer a coder stays the more liklihood they will create addons and/or help others.Entice past coders who have stopped participating.

We want to encourage inactive coders to become active again.
Activity in this forum is already positive ... the more people become aware of the forum the likelihood everyone will start seeing the benefits. It's just a matter of time...

[Freesteyelz]

It's like this. Everything coders do here is done during their own personal time. This is not a paid job, it's used up free time for the bennefit of others.


Hehe...I think it also benefits them as well knowing that their effort, pushing themselves and thinking outside the box paid off. ;) If you have the skill and the will to help others that is awesome.

[Xenon]

This thread is an interesting read really...

I will just make some final statements here, naming our reasons whay this forum has been added in the way it is now:

vbulletin.org was a board for coders at first, normal members were always welcome to get hacks/support and were thankful. Coders enjoyed the time here as there were a lot of them, so it was a meeting point of specialists.

that was the beginning, but that has changed, the ratio between coders to members has been strongly evolved into members direction, and so changed also the way of talking/posting on vbulletin.org. That's a natural thing on sites like this, and you cannot see it as a positiv or negativ aspect, just the way it is.

But that change leads to problems of course. Coders miss the "old days" where they could talk to each other on a professional base. That's why we wanted to give them a place where they could talk to each other like in the old days, and we made it the way it was, that anyone could join the group.

But that didn't make out as we want it. A lot of people just joined that group and asked questions which could have been in the other forums already, but they thought now they have more attention by coders, so we restricted it to coders only. And the reson it is private now, is because a lot of coders mentioned, that they want to talk about unfinished projects in there, which should not yet been known to the public. And as coders ARE the heart of vbulletin.org on the long run, it is the best to make their stay here as positive as possible, and so we made it a private forum, and as i can say from my own point of view: Regarding to the threads in that forum now, it was the best descission we could make, and we won't change it.

[Zachariah]

/me blushes.

Translation:
It's a place for geeks to "FLEX" in their Geekdom. :glasses:
We are the Borg.

[Logikos]

* Logikos bows to Stefan :p

[Freesteyelz]

This thread is an interesting read really...


I think that's why I'm involved in it; mainly for conversational purposes. :)

[SaN-DeeP]

This thread is an interesting read really...

I will just make some final statements here, naming our reasons whay this forum has been added in the way it is now:

vbulletin.org was a board for coders at first, normal members were always welcome to get hacks/support and were thankful. Coders enjoyed the time here as there were a lot of them, so it was a meeting point of specialists.

that was the beginning, but that has changed, the ratio between coders to members has been strongly evolved into members direction, and so changed also the way of talking/posting on vbulletin.org. That's a natural thing on sites like this, and you cannot see it as a positiv or negativ aspect, just the way it is.

But that change leads to problems of course. Coders miss the "old days" where they could talk to each other on a professional base. That's why we wanted to give them a place where they could talk to each other like in the old days, and we made it the way it was, that anyone could join the group.

But that didn't make out as we want it. A lot of people just joined that group and asked questions which could have been in the other forums already, but they thought now they have more attention by coders, so we restricted it to coders only. And the reson it is private now, is because a lot of coders mentioned, that they want to talk about unfinished projects in there, which should not yet been known to the public. And as coders ARE the heart of vbulletin.org on the long run, it is the best to make their stay here as positive as possible, and so we made it a private forum, and as i can say from my own point of view: Regarding to the threads in that forum now, it was the best descission we could make, and we won't change it.
nice clarification... thanks Xenon :).

[Quillz]

Okay.

[Brandon Sheley]

I'm not thrilled that I can't see what your talking about, but I do understand..

hope the Sr coders are able to share the knowledge with the younger coders and produce more product for me to try :D

[Paul M]

You really should change the description for it .....

All users can read but you must join the coders usergroup to post. Need help? click here!

[kall]

I did as you said and still cannot see it
That's probably because you are not a coder.

On-topic: I agree with the decision to make it non-public. I couldn't understand why it was public in the first place. Went in, took a look at the number of non-coder posts and didn't stick my head in again.

:)

[tgreer]

Hmm. I'm definitely a professional coder. I've made my living programming and teaching others to program, for decades. I wrote the printing industry's first complete eCommerce platform... I've been doing web development since there was a web - in fact I was a Compuserve Sysop prior to the 'Net. In terms of PHP and vBulletin, I've coded my own complete plugins, as well as re-written and fixed a few that I've found here. However, because I choose not to release my code to the community, with all of the attendant support problems that would entail, I'm not considered a "coder", and so cannot benefit from discussion with other vBulletin/PHP programmers?

That being the case, I hardly understand the raison d'etre of vbulletin.org!

The problems you describe can be fixed with proper forum moderation... the decision to hide the primary resource/reason for the forum, from forum members such as myself, based on an arbitrary classification, is not the right way to handle the situation.

Thomas D. Greer
www.tgreer.com
Professional Coder, Consultant, Trainer

[amykhar]

Thomas, I have to disagree. Coding ability really has nothing to do with the equation in my book. It's a reward for those who take the time to contribute to the site. If you aren't going to share your work, why should you be entitled to benefit from mine?

[Sooner95]

Personally, I think its a fine idea. Without these peepz who create these cool addons/hacks for vb, software would be kinda boring.

As a non-coder I really see no reason for members like myself to have access. Give them their privacy, hell might even have them coding more..

[tgreer]

amykhar: I respect your opinion. Disagreement is a healthy thing, I think.

My point is that, as a professional developer, I might just be able to contribute to "the site", and to a coder's subforum in particular, in a positive, beneficial way, regardless of whether I release plugins or not. Who knows? Reading and discussing ongoing projects with other PHP programmers might tempt me to collaborate, or share similars mods of my own with other coders. In fact, I'd be much more willing to share my work among other skilled programmers, than I would be to release a plugin to the public. I commend you for taking on that burden, and if you want a reward for that beyond the satisfaction of a job well done: PM me your address, I'll send you a cookie.

If I simply wanted to benefit from your work, I can do that already, can I not? So that, to me, is a non-argument.

[AWS]

Thomas, programming is your profession. You do as a means to live. You understand what it takes to support your work. You understand that you have to support the work you release.
Most of the hack coders are are hobbiest, there are exceptions and this isn't meant to slight them. They think that having the coder tag makes them larger than life. Some of them have egos as big as Mount Everest and some are arrogant enough to say I won't support this hack if you can't understand how to install it. They don't know what it is like to develope and support an enterprise peice of software where you have to hand hold the majority of people who buy and use the product.
The coder forum gives them validation.
As far as all the argueing about it being private. Why does anyone care? It isn't going to get you a job programming. It doesn't make you a coder. After all you are only hacking forum software and that isn't something you can put on your resume.
There are a few professional programmers that visit here that have never released a hack for one reason or another. My reason is the same as yours. I wouldn't have time to support it in the way it should be supported.
Let them have the private forum. I doubt it would be benificial to the real programmers anyway.

[tgreer]

Yes, I'm a professional developer. However, I don't take quite the same antagonistic stance on this issue as you do. I've downloaded/installed some of these plugins, looked at the code, and wanted to ask a few questions as to why this was hard-coded, instead of phrased, etc. I'm not as familiar with the underlying vBulletin code as many here. I've implemented a few things on my own, but wanted to discuss optimization; I've looked at some of the PHP code and wanted to know where certain variables got their default vaules... you know, CODING DISCUSSIONS.

I've found vBulletin.org to be distinctly lacking in those kinds of discussions, and have often wondered why there wasn't an active coders section. Now I know why: there is, but because I haven't contributed a dubious hack/plugin, I'm barred from participation. That, in my opinion, is an awfully close-minded and ultimately self-defeating decision.

I may not be the paragon of programming, so banning my participation might not be such a big loss to the community. However several other very expernienced programmers and vbulletin programmer/operators are similarly disqualified. What a shame.

[Paul M]

I may not be the paragon of programming, so banning my participation might not be such a big loss to the community. However several other very expernienced programmers and vbulletin programmer/operators are similarly disqualified. What a shame.Perhaps you should try the "PHP / MySQL / JS / (X)HTML" forum then, that is a general purpose coding forum for everyone, the purpose of the coders forum is for coders who have contributed to this site to speak to each other, away from the distractions of the main forums. :)

[Osterling]

It's not like you cannot gain access, all you have to do is create and release your own hacks and eventually you will gain your right to access that area.

[tgreer]

I'm afraid you misunderstand me. I can see that forum. In fact, I moderate similarly broad forums on www.daniweb.com, one of the foremost, most succesful forums and, btw, vbulletin implementations. (I find it ironic that Dani herself, a phenomenal PHP programmer and vBulletin coder, couldn't see the coder forum if she came here). I don't seek PHP/MySQL/JS/XHTML help. I seek discussions about authoring vbulletin plugins and modifications, and I wish to have those discussions with experienced PHP/vbulletin programmers.

One would think vbulletin.org would be the perfect place for such discussions, but apparently the mission statement has changed?

If the purpose of vbulletin.org, however, is for plugin coders to dole out their plugins while they cloister together in a private little insular group, marginalizing everyone else, then I really don't see any reason to stay and participate. In fact, my participation is apparently NOT WANTED.

Forum admin: please terminate/ban my account.

[Paul M]

I seek discussions about authoring vbulletin plugins and modifications, and I wish to have those discussions with experienced PHP/vbulletin programmers.and there is nothing stopping you doing that in the many forums already used for that here. Still, feel free to spit out your dummy, and please remember to close the door on your way out. :cross-eyed:

[tgreer]

Thank you for re-affirming and validating my decision. If you represent the typical "Master Coder", in terms of quality of discussion, then I'm certainly not missing much.

[KW802]

Looks like some people's egos are getting bruised.

If the forum name was "Code Contributors" and it was private, would you still be complaining?

[Paul M]

Thank you for re-affirming and validating my decision. If you represent the typical "Master Coder", in terms of quality of discussion, then I'm certainly not missing much.Perhaps you should re-read your own contributions before questioning the quality of others ;)

[noppid]

Thomas, I have to disagree. Coding ability really has nothing to do with the equation in my book. It's a reward for those who take the time to contribute to the site. If you aren't going to share your work, why should you be entitled to benefit from mine?

The fact that this breeds the attitude you are entitled to anything is proof the whole concept is flawed.

Either release free code on the .org as such and move on or sell your wares and reap the profits if your code holds it's water.

The attitude, that if I work hard doing free stuff I'm entitled to something, breeds contempt. I don't find it acceptable at all.

Your posts may mean well, but they are in fact painting you into an elitest light. They are also encouraging crap work to be rushed to publish for the sake of this so called privledge and that serves the community in no way shape or form.

Stop asserting your burden or stop releasing free code like I did. Trust me, if we start analysing this so called elitist code, things will be painted in a different light.

This goes against the grain of the entire concept of .org. But it's not the first or only instance of such actions. My contributions have suffered and will contiue to be elsewhere while this club, formally know as vbulletin.org, get's it act together.

It's amazing how people forget where they came from and then suddenly advise people to leave and shut the door behind them cause they've moved on to being smarter and can't be bothered anymore.

Long live the little people, just not here.

[Zachariah]

It's a reward for those who take the time to contribute to the site.

I did not know that. :ermm:

I thought it was a "think tank area" where we could team up for some sweet mods.

[Freesteyelz]

I wonder if that was my bad, as I did mention in a prior post that the Coders forum is a benefit/reward. I should have articulated a bit more what I meant by the reference. It is possible, however, that the concept of the forum has a different meaning to the members involved. *Sigh*

Speaking of which, where do Templaters fit into the scheme of things? :D

[Xenon]

Ok, no i don't really like the tone in here anymore. That thread is not here to post about each others ego.

I'll close this thread now. If any of you have problems with each other, use the pm system, but please don't do so in public....

[Erwin]

I've kept out of the discussion but wanted to post a comment.

This Coders Discussion forum is a totally NEW forum created only a few weeks ago. If you are not a coder or have released a hack here, the fact that you cannot access this forum should make no difference to you, as it never existed in the first place. The mistake we made was to make it open in the first place, then made it private.

We still have plenty of other forums for people who have not released hacks - this forum is merely a forum to make those who have contribute to the site feel a bit more "special". Is that so wrong?

Since we have not made any changes to the CURRENT forums, I don't understand how anyone could say that this site has "changed its mission".