Overgrow.com Busted, Servers Seized!

[tpearl5]

http://smokedot.org/content/view/315/2/

Overgrow.com, Cannabisworld.com, Heaven's Stairway Seed Company, and Eurohemp.com Shut Down and Servers Seized by Canadian Police.
Now it appears Heaven's Stairway Seeds (hempqc.com), Cannabisworld.com, Overgrow.com, Eurohemp.com have been shut down and the owners arrested in Canada; all their web properties seized, including the physical servers that held massive databases on thousands of growers, and tens of thousands of photographs of cannabis plants. Seed companies by the dozens used both Overgrow.com and Cannabisworld.com as a main trading ground. Over 40 seed companies had customer service interactive forums on these sites.

All the information held on those servers is now in the hands of police. It is not known what charges have been laid nor against whom. That police have not boasted about this seizure means the investigation is continuing, before any affected parties can react.


http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/4638.html

New Information Regarding Police Seizures of Overgrow.com
by Marc Emery (03 Feb, 2006) Overgrow.com, Cannabisworld.com, Heaven's Stairway Seed Company and Eurohemp.com Owners Apprehended


Overgrow.com unavailable
Cannabis Culture has developed a timeline of events we believe accurately account for the disappearance of Overgrow.com, Cannabisworld.com, Heaven's Stairway Seeds (hempqc.com), and Eurohemp.

On Monday evening, resident of Montreal Richard Calrisian, the owner of the four websites, was contacted by his web service providers in Vancouver where his servers were situated. They told him that there may be a problem, regarding a police investigation. RC told his provider to shut down the websites immediately.

Within hours, the police (it's unknown what kind of police) apparently entered the server site in Vancouver with a warrant and apprehended the hardware that housed the four web sites.

In the early morning of Tuesday, police in Montreal moved in and arrested RC, his wife, family members and an unknown number of employees.

It is alleged that RC, a pseudonym, is being held at Riviere-des-Prairie (RDP) jail in Montreal, and his wife in is Tanguay jail, across the river from RDP. Cannabis Culture called the prison and found no one there under the name Richard Calrisian.

The bail hearing should be on Monday, but it is unusual that a bail hearing has not yet been held. Typically they take place within 24 hours of arrest, unless an investigation is ongoing and the accused are being held temporarily without bail. This may be because there is a risk that the arrest news might inform other persons who are also under investigation.

Earlier reports of a drug bust in Hearst, Ontario are not related the seizure of Overgrow.com websites.


More information to come, when provided

That sucks. I remember overgrow when he was making hacks for vB2.

[MRGTB]

http://smokedot.org/content/view/315/2/

Overgrow.com, Cannabisworld.com, Heaven's Stairway Seed Company, and Eurohemp.com Shut Down and Servers Seized by Canadian Police.
Now it appears Heaven's Stairway Seeds (hempqc.com), Cannabisworld.com, Overgrow.com, Eurohemp.com have been shut down and the owners arrested in Canada; all their web properties seized, including the physical servers that held massive databases on thousands of growers, and tens of thousands of photographs of cannabis plants. Seed companies by the dozens used both Overgrow.com and Cannabisworld.com as a main trading ground. Over 40 seed companies had customer service interactive forums on these sites.

All the information held on those servers is now in the hands of police. It is not known what charges have been laid nor against whom. That police have not boasted about this seizure means the investigation is continuing, before any affected parties can react.


http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/4638.html

New Information Regarding Police Seizures of Overgrow.com
by Marc Emery (03 Feb, 2006) Overgrow.com, Cannabisworld.com, Heaven's Stairway Seed Company and Eurohemp.com Owners Apprehended


Overgrow.com unavailable
Cannabis Culture has developed a timeline of events we believe accurately account for the disappearance of Overgrow.com, Cannabisworld.com, Heaven's Stairway Seeds (hempqc.com), and Eurohemp.

On Monday evening, resident of Montreal Richard Calrisian, the owner of the four websites, was contacted by his web service providers in Vancouver where his servers were situated. They told him that there may be a problem, regarding a police investigation. RC told his provider to shut down the websites immediately.

Within hours, the police (it's unknown what kind of police) apparently entered the server site in Vancouver with a warrant and apprehended the hardware that housed the four web sites.

In the early morning of Tuesday, police in Montreal moved in and arrested RC, his wife, family members and an unknown number of employees.

It is alleged that RC, a pseudonym, is being held at Riviere-des-Prairie (RDP) jail in Montreal, and his wife in is Tanguay jail, across the river from RDP. Cannabis Culture called the prison and found no one there under the name Richard Calrisian.

The bail hearing should be on Monday, but it is unusual that a bail hearing has not yet been held. Typically they take place within 24 hours of arrest, unless an investigation is ongoing and the accused are being held temporarily without bail. This may be because there is a risk that the arrest news might inform other persons who are also under investigation.

Earlier reports of a drug bust in Hearst, Ontario are not related the seizure of Overgrow.com websites.


More information to come, when provided

That sucks. I remember overgrow when he was making hacks for vB2.

Why do I not sound surprised :)

From what I read they had half the worlds seed punters using there site to advertize and sell there seeds there (drugs).

[filburt1]

Good. About damn time the law punched them back.

[Tony G]

Wow that's a bit of a surprise.

[tpearl5]

I thought weed was legal in canada? I don't smoke, I dunno...

[Tony G]

Might have been the fact that people were selling weed on the forum that was illegal. Or maybe its only legal for medical purposes.

[TruthElixirX]

I have a friend in canada and I THINK he said it is legal to have an ounce.

Good though. It was about time, as filburt said.

[BamaStangGuy]

Good stuff

[Jaynesh]

I thought weed was legal in canada? I don't smoke, I dunno...

Selling it on the internet means younger kids can get hold of it.

[Tony G]

Not really. It's easy for a kid with money to get the stuff on the streets.

[IML8RU2]

In Canada it's only legal if it is prescribed for medical purposes. It's illegal to buy anywhere except at specified places and you basically can't smoke it without a doctors note. That being said - just try and get busted for it. You have to be in the big time before the police start worrying about you here. They can't even keep up with busting the grow-ops they know exist.

Nat

"Canadian Gal"

[Regs]

Selling it on the internet means younger kids can get hold of it.Think about who's fault that would be. How would they be able to pay for it?

[Paul M]

He wasn't very bright then, fancy running an illegal site on servers in the same country .....

[DannyMilner]

I thought you where allowed to sell cannabis seeds (legaly). Anyway its there own fault.

[Brad]

Might have been the fact that people were selling weed on the forum that was illegal. Or maybe its only legal for medical purposes.

The stuff was not sold on the site. It only hosted a (large) faq on growing, a strain database that linked to seed banks, and a gallery for the users.

Shame to see it go.

[Dean C]

What a ++++ing joke. There was nothing illegal going on, on that site.

[Tony G]

The stuff was not sold on the site. It only hosted a (large) faq on growing, a strain database that linked to seed banks, and a gallery for the users.

Shame to see it go.

Well yeah, I guess telling people how to grow it is illegal too. :p

[Borgs8472]

There can be a High price for this sort of thing ;)

[tokosan]

From all reports, it appears the operators of Overgrow.com were arrested for some other, yet unknown (likely growing), reasons, and that Overgrow.com was collatoral damage.

[amykhar]

I have to wonder if Jelsoft is going to distance itself and remove the credit to Overgrow from future versions of Vbulletin.

[Freezerator]

I suggest they take on hosting in the Netherlands. I don't see how information about growing could be a criminal activity. Selling is another thing :)

[MRGTB]

But even if they hosted in a place like the Netherlands, how would the owners of the site fair if they lived in a country were it was outlawed.

I would have thought while the server was legal in that country, the owners would still be at risk because they might lived in another country were it's not legal.

[FleaBag]

For Jelsoft to remove the credit would be terrible I think. Nomatter how long ago his contributions were made part of stock code or how that code may have changed he has helped shape the product we have today.

In the UK seeds are legal. It is only illegal to cultivate. Although posession, is mostly ignored by law enforcement. For instance, I smoke publically [obviously I don't flaunt it] and have never been approached. If the police noticed though I guess I would only be arrested if I was near a school or in the city centre.

Teaching people how to grow is not ilegal! I don't understand why they seized the server.

[smacklan]

To quote the actor Stacey Keach from the Up in Smoke movies, "The surest way to make them bleed is to bust their *** and take their weed". :p

[KTBleeding]

Good. About damn time the law punched them back.

Good though. It was about time, as filburt said.

:sigh:

Why not show a little respect, huh?

I don't agree with the use of marijuana either, but I can also control myself from posting something like that.

Imagine you losing your hundreds, if not thousands of hours of work on your website (not to mention the money that goes into keeping it up) and having some snotty kid say, "Good. They deserved it."

[BamaStangGuy]

:sigh:

Why not show a little respect, huh?

I don't agree with the use of marijuana either, but I can also control myself from posting something like that.

Imagine you losing your hundreds, if not thousands of hours of work on your website (not to mention the money that goes into keeping it up) and having some snotty kid say, "Good. They deserved it."

Won't happen, I don't promote the use nor tell people how to grow/use illegal substances.

If what I have read is true they did deserve it as Overgrow was used to sell the substance across different countries.

[filburt1]

:sigh:

Why not show a little respect, huh?

I don't agree with the use of marijuana either, but I can also control myself from posting something like that.

Imagine you losing your hundreds, if not thousands of hours of work on your website (not to mention the money that goes into keeping it up) and having some snotty kid say, "Good. They deserved it."
Well they did. Name one thing that was legal about their site's content.

I for one am pissed that their name is in the vB credits. It may be the only file I edit in my vB installation just to remove it. I will not have any part of my forum associated with the site's content, particularly because it's explicitly forbidden to speak of it in my forum rules.

[filburt1]

:sigh:

Why not show a little respect, huh?

I don't agree with the use of marijuana either, but I can also control myself from posting something like that.

Imagine you losing your hundreds, if not thousands of hours of work on your website (not to mention the money that goes into keeping it up) and having some snotty kid say, "Good. They deserved it."
BTW, I'm a college-educated 21-year-old with years of professional (i.e., paid job in a company/government) development experience. I'm not a snotty kid, nor did I verbally (well, textually) attack you, and I'd appreciate some respect. The moderator status alone should convey respect, whether I'm 21 or 12.

[Reeve of shinra]

As far as I know, discussion was not illegal and whether you or not we specifically agree with the subject - free speech is something that we should be supporting.

If it has gone above and beyond free speech, thats another thing but all I've seen so far is speculation here about what was going on.

[filburt1]

I support free speech. I do not support speech of any kind on illegal topics. You could distort it to a view that discussing illegal activities is a form of conspiracy to commit the crimes in question.

Let's say I opened up a forum about homicide. That's a crime. Would your opinion change?

[Corriewf]

BTW, I'm a college-educated 21-year-old with years of professional (i.e., paid job in a company/government) development experience. I'm not a snotty kid, nor did I verbally (well, textually) attack you, and I'd appreciate some respect. The moderator status alone should convey respect, whether I'm 21 or 12.


21 is still very very young in the full spectrum of life and in the professional world you are considered a kid. Moderatorship may command respect in regards of your knowledge of the rules here but outside of that realm your opinions are still subject to debate as any other member.

[Reeve of shinra]

I support free speech. I do not support speech of any kind on illegal topics. You could distort it to a view that discussing illegal activities is a form of conspiracy to commit the crimes in question.

Let's say I opened up a forum about homicide. That's a crime. Would your opinion change?


No my opinion wouldn't change because freedom of speech is still freedom of speech.

What if it was ruled illegal to practice christianity - would you be against people discussing various parts of the new testiment? What if it were ruled illegal to protest, would you be against discussions questioning certain policies? Where would it end?

[Corriewf]

No my opinion wouldn't change because freedom of speech is still freedom of speech.

What if it was ruled illegal to practice christianity - would you be against people discussing various parts of the new testiment? What if it were ruled illegal to protest, would you be against discussions questioning certain policies? Where would it end?


You guys are forgetting one thing....Freedom of speech is an American right and not global.

[yayvb]

I support free speech. I do not support speech of any kind on illegal topics.Hence you becoming a forum moderator.

You don't support free speech if you don't support speech of any kind. IMO that's what the 'free' means is that you're free to say what you choose without being punished. What has happened here is horrible and I hope things are resolved quickly for the owners and operators.

Just because you side with the government doesn't mean anyone should be thankful that 'free thinkers' should have their websites permanently closed. What about the fact that now the canadian government has IP records and other contact information for thousands of members, message logs, private message logs, etc. does that make some of you happy? Do you hope that my government causes me and my website so much trouble?

[KTBleeding]

Well they did. Name one thing that was legal about their site's content.I couldn't do that. I've never once been to the website.

BTW, I'm a college-educated 21-year-old with years of professional (i.e., paid job in a company/government) development experience. I'm not a snotty kid, nor did I verbally (well, textually) attack you, and I'd appreciate some respect. The moderator status alone should convey respect, whether I'm 21 or 12.I'm not going to get into it with you, but the above post just pretty much provides me with more reason to believe that what I said was true. Maybe not the "kid" part. Perhaps, "Snotty young adult" would suffice?

:cheeky:

I am just playing around.. but come on.. I'm just stating that what you originally posted was rather disrespectful. And coming from a moderator?

If you want respect from the community, I suggest giving some of your own. Just because you may have better grammar than a lot of people here, and that your website doesn't practice the growth of illegal paraphernalia doesn't mean that you should disrespect someone who does.

Maybe I'm being a little too harsh? But if there's one thing I can't stand, it's someone who thinks they're better than someone else and I happen to get that impression from you quite a bit. :ermm:

[BamaStangGuy]

I don't find any of it disrespectful. Obviously he was doing more than just talking about weed because Overgrow is not the only site that discusses this.

This is not a case of free speech being shot down like everyone wants to make it out to be

[nitro]

Wow they took their time doing that, I said it would happen when I once visited the site in the days of Karma and it must have been one of the biggest forums around. Was really an obvious attraction for a haul in, not because talking how to grow is illegal, but all the users on there who openly posting about doing it.

Wont be long before big open boards like cdfreaks is done aswell, not because they have illegal stuff there but because theirs hordes of idiots posting there openly admitting to using filesharing bla bla.

Oh and I think unless its changed but importing seeds into the UK is illegal, but possesion of them in the UK isnt. I maybe wrong maybe not.

Sites like these will get busted for mass evidence purposes, why would the old bill want to run round trying to find these people when they all post on such places. All they are doing is dobbing themselves in in the long term.

[EricaJoy]

Sorry to hear that. As stated above, I didn't know it was illegal to discuss things that are illegal.

I am disheartened to see a member of the forum staff here take a "good riddance" stance towards the closing of any site. I've never once been to the site but if they did enough to have their name in the VB credits? I'd say that deserves some modicum of respect.

As they were apparently discussing the use of marijuana, please keep in mind that the laws against marijuana use are man's law and isn't even the law of the land everywhere.

I'd go into my views on the unfairness of the laws against marijuana but I'll save that for another time and place.

For the record, no, I'm not a drug user of any sort (unless you count the occasional margarita).

[BamaStangGuy]

Sorry to hear that. As stated above, I didn't know it was illegal to discuss things that are illegal.

I am disheartened to see a member of the forum staff here take a "good riddance" stance towards the closing of any site. I've never once been to the site but if they did enough to have their name in the VB credits? I'd say that deserves some modicum of respect.

As they were apparently discussing the use of marijuana, please keep in mind that the laws against marijuana use are man's law and isn't even the law of the land everywhere.

I'd go into my views on the unfairness of the laws against marijuana but I'll save that for another time and place.

For the record, no, I'm not a drug user of any sort (unless you count the occasional margarita).

It is not illegal to discuss things illegal but OBVIOUSLY more was going on with the owner of the site and the site itself.

[tgillespie]

Sorry to hear that. As stated above, I didn't know it was illegal to discuss things that are illegal.The discussion of marijuana is not illegal and was not the reason the site was shut down. The fact that the message boards were being used as a means for drug traffic was in fact the reason. Marijuana usage is illegal world wide which makes distrobution illegal regardless of ones location. If searching through the forum's PMs and logs will help hinder drug traffic then I would consider myself a supporter of the governments decision. As far as I am concerned when someone engages in illegal activity (movement of an illegal substance), their personal privacy is all but law enforcement's right.

You can find the discussion of marijuana just about anywhere you want to look (schools, movies, music) so its pretty plain that something other than "marijuana discussion" was going on.

What a ++++ing joke. There was nothing illegal going on, on that site.
Pretty bold statement for someone who has no idea what hes talking about. There was obviously something illegal at hand or else there would have been no intervention.

[bgray]

Wow! Although I'm not totally surprised this is a bit of a shock. Didn't he do the first Karma hack?

[nitro]

The discussion of marijuana is not illegal and was not the reason the site was shut down. The fact that the message boards were being used as a means for drug traffic was in fact the reason. Marijuana usage is illegal world wide which makes distrobution illegal regardless of ones location. If searching through the forum's PMs and logs will help hinder drug traffic then I would consider myself a supporter of the governments decision. As far as I am concerned when someone engages in illegal activity (movement of an illegal substance), their personal privacy is all but law enforcement's right.

You can find the discussion of marijuana just about anywhere you want to look (schools, movies, music) so its pretty plain that something other than "marijuana discussion" was going on.


Pretty bold statement for someone who has no idea what hes talking about. There was obviously something illegal at hand or else there would have been no intervention.

This is not nessecarily the case, the site maywell have had no involvement in any final product trafficking at all, I really fail to see how a website can be used for someone who would want a 10 buck deal now on an international website which means the trafficking going on must have been huge (again unlikley as most people would not have the land available to grow enough), if it was down to that. What should be noted is 1000s of members there and this was soemtime ago when I visited it once to look at the old karma hack in action, (I did not even know what the websites orientation was till I saw it), but hordes of those members were posting on an open website there little mini gardens, a few plants in a warddrobe etc, its inevitable at some point that a server which is gathering information from people about there illegal activities wether for personal use or not is going to get pulled by the authorities at some point and the evidence obtained will get forwarded to the relevant enforcing agencies around the world.

[tgillespie]

This is not nessecarily the case, the site maywell have had no involvement in any final product trafficking at all, I really fail to see how a website can be used for someone who would want a 10 buck deal now on an international website which means the trafficking going on must have been huge (again unlikley as most people would not have the land available to grow enough), if it was down to that. What should be noted is 1000s of members there and this was soemtime ago when I visited it once to look at the old karma hack in action, (I did not even know what the websites orientation was till I saw it), but hordes of those members were posting on an open website there little mini gardens, a few plants in a warddrobe etc, its inevitable at some point that a server which is gathering information from people about there illegal activities wether for personal use or not is going to get pulled by the authorities at some point and the evidence obtained will get forwarded to the relevant enforcing agencies around the world.The law is the law. Buying $10 worth of pot is nothing different than buying $10,000.

[nitro]

The law is the law. Buying $10 worth of pot is nothing different than buying $10,000.

Lol, and a 99.9% recurring chance not to happen on a open public website when a 10$ bag is on lots of local street corners and local houses. I am not saying the law is not the law,
I am saying its just more likley to get pulled if a couple hundred thousand members are openly posting pictures and stuff of their activities as any other which is exactly what it was when I saw it a few years back, I doubt it changed much except overgrew, the agaencies will just have waited till they were in a bored moment to go an pick up the server, the longer the better for them because the more evidence on there.

[KW802]

Filburt,

While I agree with you in regards to the view you have with this thread it is still comments like this...
.... and I'd appreciate some respect. The moderator status alone should convey respect, whether I'm 21 or 12.... that show you are indeed still a "kid" when viewed by others. Respect of a position is one thing but respect of an individual is something that is to be earned, it's not an entitlement, regardless of what position or titles that person may have.

[EricaJoy]

Marijuana usage is illegal world wide which makes distrobution illegal regardless of ones location.Untrue. Alaska's constitution gives its residents the right to possess marijuana for personal use. They are allowed to have a small amount of marijuana in their homes as long as there is no intent to distribute.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:0xgAWXjuMisJ:www.peninsulaclarion.c om/stories/070603/ala_070603ala020001.shtml
(cached version linked because the newspaper has started to require registration...ugh)

[tgillespie]

Untrue. Alaska's constitution gives its residents the right to possess marijuana for personal use. They are allowed to have a small amount of marijuana in their homes as long as there is no intent to distribute.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:0xgAWXjuMisJ:www.peninsulaclarion.c om/stories/070603/ala_070603ala020001.shtml
(cached version linked because the newspaper has started to require registration...ugh)While your right, your also very wrong. Marijuana is legal in very small amounts in multiple places around the United States. For example, the last vote in Denver Colorado passed a law that legalized small amounts of marijuana for possesion in the county of Denver. Does this make it legal? No. Why you might ask. Just as in Alaska, it is illegal to exchange marijuana as well as it is illegal to grow marijuana. With those two things deemed illegal, how is one suppose to obtain marijuana? The Alaskan Constitution states that it is legal for personal use, but if its illegal to grow or buy, how is one suppose to obtain the marijuana? The only legal method is through a medical facility. Therefor anyone who uses marijuana outside of the medical scope is performing an illegal act.

Secondly, we all know that federal law trumpts state law. Even if the Alaskan Constitution states that marijuana is legal, the federal judicial system still over rules making marijuana illegal throughout the entire 50 states. If you really believe that marijuana is legal in Alaska, I would encourage you to try it out sometime. Walk into the state court house with a baggie of pot. Let me know how it goes :classic:

[Corriewf]

Untrue. Alaska's constitution gives its residents the right to possess marijuana for personal use. They are allowed to have a small amount of marijuana in their homes as long as there is no intent to distribute.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:0xgAWXjuMisJ:www.peninsulaclarion.c om/stories/070603/ala_070603ala020001.shtml
(cached version linked because the newspaper has started to require registration...ugh)


Thats because you have to be stoned to live there...... ;)

[EricaJoy]

While your right, your also very wrong. Marijuana is legal in very small amounts in multiple places around the United States. For example, the last vote in Denver Colorado passed a law that legalized small amounts of marijuana for possesion in the county of Denver. Does this make it legal? No. Why you might ask. Just as in Alaska, it is illegal to exchange marijuana as well as it is illegal to grow marijuana. With those two things deemed illegal, how is one suppose to obtain marijuana? The Alaskan Constitution states that it is legal for personal use, but if its illegal to grow or buy, how is one suppose to obtain the marijuana? The only legal method is through a medical facility. Therefor anyone who uses marijuana outside of the medical scope is performing an illegal act.

Secondly, we all know that federal law trumpts state law. Even if the Alaskan Constitution states that marijuana is legal, the federal judicial system still over rules making marijuana illegal throughout the entire 50 states. If you really believe that marijuana is legal in Alaska, I would encourage you to try it out sometime. Walk into the state court house with a baggie of pot. Let me know how it goes :classic:As an Alaska resident (yes I live in Atlanta but my residency is still Fairbanks, Alaska) I can tell you that I don't have to try it out. Nobody gets busted for pot unless there is something else to go along with it in Alaska (DUI, domestic violence, etc). Also, you can grow it on your property or in your residence there as well, AS LONG AS there is no intent to distribute. As far as federal trumping state law, as far as I know, Scott Thomas is still a free man. Where's the DEA, FBI, CIA trumping the Alaska constitution?

And booooo corriewf, you don't have to be stoned to live there. I lived there for 13 years. :-P

[Corriewf]

And booooo corriewf, you don't have to be stoned to live there. I lived there for 13 years. :-P

Which further proves my theory.... :p

[Reeve of shinra]

I do not support speech of any kind on illegal topics including this discussion of the legalities and merits of pot so if the vbulletin.org servers get siezed, I am just going to say its about damn time the law cracked down on this.

Sorry Filburt, but the opportunity just couldn't be resisted to better articulate my point :)

[amykhar]

I haven't been able to find any legitimate news reports on this. Thus far, everything I've read has been rumors on pot-sites. Are there any links to legitimate news sites - not blogs?

[tgillespie]

As an Alaska resident (yes I live in Atlanta but my residency is still Fairbanks, Alaska) I can tell you that I don't have to try it out. Nobody gets busted for pot unless there is something else to go along with it in Alaska (DUI, domestic violence, etc). Also, you can grow it on your property or in your residence there as well, AS LONG AS there is no intent to distribute. As far as federal trumping state law, as far as I know, Scott Thomas is still a free man. Where's the DEA, FBI, CIA trumping the Alaska constitution?

And booooo corriewf, you don't have to be stoned to live there. I lived there for 13 years. :-PFederal law does trumpt state law (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/06/scotus.medical.marijuana/) which means marijuana is illegal regardless of where you live. I do remember the ONE and I repeat ONE court case in Alaska where charges were dropped when a man was arrested for growing pot in his house. If the state of Alaska had wanted, they could have appealed and went to federal court. Drug enforcement is not a matter of the FBI or CIA, it is however the DEA's (http://www.dea.gov/pubs/states/alaska.html) job. They seized over 3.2 kgs of marijuana in Alaska for the year of 2004.

I haven't been able to find any legitimate news reports on this. Thus far, everything I've read has been rumors on pot-sites. Are there any links to legitimate news sites - not blogs?This is about as creditable (http://smokedot.org/content/view/315/2/) as it gets. Possibly just a rumor? :ermm:

[BamaStangGuy]

<a href="http://whois.sc/65.39.170.187" target="_blank">http://whois.sc/65.39.170.187</a>

This is his host

[Chris M]

Marijuana usage is illegal world wide which makes distrobution illegal regardless of ones location.
The world extends beyond the US, I'm sure you are aware...

I can think of one place immediately where it's not illegal - The Netherlands :)

However, regardless of the legalities of smoking or growing it, talking about it showing people how to grow it or roll it, as far as I know, is not illegal :)

The only thing I can see anyone really taking issue with is the information on where to buy the seeds etc ;)

Chris

[tgillespie]

Excuse me, but I am very aware the world extends beyond America.
The world extends beyond the US, I'm sure you are aware...

I can think of one place immediately where it's not illegal - The Netherlands :)

However, regardless of the legalities of smoking or growing it, talking about it showing people how to grow it or roll it, as far as I know, is not illegal :)

The only thing I can see anyone really taking issue with is the information on where to buy the seeds etc ;)

ChrisSorry, but thats a common misconception. Pot is however illegal world wide. Even in the Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#Non-enforcement). Cannabis remains a controlled substance in the Netherlands and both possession and production for personal use are still misdemeanors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misdemeanor), punishable by fine.The coffee shop canibus store is popular in the Netherlands and not often attacked by law enforcement which gives the impression that canibus is legal, but it still remains an illegal drug.

[Brad]

I don't think it is outlawed world wide. I'm sure you could get away with smoking in Antarctica for example. ;)

A better way of putting it would be it's illegal in most modern places in the world and allowed for medical uses in some places.

We can speculate about this all night, but we will never know what really happened unless the owner of the site comes forward. It's obvious that he had many sites dealing with the same subject, maybe something he was doing on one of them lead to overgrow getting taken offline as well. :)

I should also point out that 'overgrow' in the vBulletin admincp is not there to give credit to that site. It's there because that is the name the author of the karma hack for vB2 used, at the time he coded it he was the technical admin at overgrow.com. I think he left the overgrow.com community about two years ago.

[AWS]

You do know that Overgrow, the person in the vbulletin credits, didn't own the site any longer and that he is not the one that was busted. He sold the site a couple years ago.
Just thought I'd point out that out.
You can go back to the legality discussions.

[PennylessZ28]

LMAO, nothing illegal going on. HAHAHA, yup and nothing illegal goes on, at all those forums the terrorist visit either.

[FleaBag]

Maybe, technically pot is illegal in most modern places. But just because something is illegal doesn't mean it carries a jail sentance or any kind or disciplinary process. I know for a fact that where I live, if I got stopped by the police, prodivded I had less than an ounce in no more than 1 piece and they had no reason to believe I intended to traffic I'd simply have it confiscated and be sent on my way without even a caution.

The world is a very busy place and law enforcement agencies have better things to do than police a crime that has no recorded associated fatalities in the history of everywhere worldwide.

And to compare smoking marijuana users with terrorists is a little off the mark.

[TheComputerGuy]

New vBulletin Rule - If you use are software to discuss pot....your license will be revoked..
vBulletin.com might want to take the props off the frontpage for the random link.

Overgrow the user is a pretty nice guy, and genius IMO. Filaburts comments were rude and frowned upon as a moderator of vBulletin.

I don't smoke the stuff, and I have feelings against it...just think this could be any one of us should a thread go into the wrong direction of our larger sites.

[Guest210212002]

If someone puts up a website that in any way, shape or form helps kids do drugs, I'm with filburt and am happy to see it go. One kid, one hundred kids, it doesn't matter.

[Tigga]

I support free speech. I do not support speech of any kind on illegal topics. You could distort it to a view that discussing illegal activities is a form of conspiracy to commit the crimes in question.

Let's say I opened up a forum about homicide. That's a crime. Would your opinion change?
The last time I checked free speech included the right to discuss topics that you would find on their site, whether you personally find them offensive or not. Do you drink alcohol at all? Even if you don't... Say a site that contained info about making mixed drinks was in the same situation. Would you have the same attitude then?
And I'm sorry, but your comparison to homicide is just plain ridiculous. Try comparing it to something more like a DUI and you might have some ground to stand on.

Famous quote: It's dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.

Excuse me, but I am very aware the world extends beyond America.
Sorry, but thats a common misconception. Pot is however illegal world wide. Even in the Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#Non-enforcement). The coffee shop canibus store is popular in the Netherlands and not often attacked by law enforcement which gives the impression that canibus is legal, but it still remains an illegal drug.
World wide, eh? Want to put some money on that one? :D

[tgillespie]

World wide, eh? Want to put some money on that one? :DI don't bet, but I always like new information. Care to share?

[Brad]

I am sure it's legal to do in some places, although you might have to drive a boat out to international waters to get away with it. ;)

I think it's odd how the laws on pot vary so much from state to state (I can understand country to country). For example the state I live in (North Carolina) decriminalized the stuff awhile back, but that does not mean you can go around smoking it in public. The only thing it did was bump the felony charges up to 1 and 1/2 ounces (it used to be 1 ounce).

Possession of one half ounce or less is punishable by up to 30 days in jail, most likely suspended. Possession of greater than one half ounce is punishable by 1 - 120 days in jail, with a possibility of community service or probation in lieu of jail. Possession greater than 1.5 ounces increases the penalties to 8 - 13 months in jail.

Manufacture, sale or delivery of less than five grams, for no remuneration, is considered possession and not sale. For amounts of ten pounds or less, the penalty is 4 - 8 months in jail. Sale or delivery of any amount greater than 10 pounds is considered trafficking and includes a mandatory minimum sentence. An amount greater than 10 pounds, is punishable by 25 - 30 months in prison and a fine of at least $5,000. Sale or delivery of 50 pounds or more is punishable by 35 - 42 months in prison and a fine of at least $25,000. Amounts of 2,000 pounds or greater carry a penalty of 70 - 84 months in prison and a fine of at least $50,000. Sale or delivery of 10,000 pounds or more is punishable by 175 - 219 months in prison and a fine of at least $200,000.

Penalties for sale, delivery or manufacture are increased if the sale occurs within 300 feet of a school zone if the offender is over 21 and if the sale was made to a minor or to a pregnant woman.

Possession of paraphernalia is punishable by up to six months in jail.

To complicate matters, my state has a Tax Stamp law. Basically they expect you to pay taxes on these illegal goods...think about that and tell me it does not blow your mind. :)

Marijuana tax stamps: This state has a marijuana tax stamp law enacted. This law mandates that those who possess marijuana are legally required to purchase and affix state-issued stamps onto his or her contraband. Failure to do so may result in a fine and/or criminal sanction.

To me that just sounds like kicking someone when they are down. :p

[Corriewf]

WTH! So if you get busted then you must pay taxes on some transaction that is illegal. So are the dealers including sales tax now?

[Reeve of shinra]

If your required to pay taxes on illegal goods, and do so, wouldn't that make the goods legal?

[S@NL - BlackBik]

I think a couple of peeps here should roll a joint and smoke it.
It relaxes you, I heard :)

[Logikos]

It sucks to see someone lose something like that. All the hard work and engery put into the site that took many years just gone in seconds.

I don't personally agree with Filburts post either and to go as far as editing just overgrows name out of the vBulletin credits is really disrespectful. It seems your big on having respect, yet you don't seem to give respect in certain situations. I respect the fact that your agaist smoking pot, and in return; you should respect the fact that there are people out there who enjoy smoking pot.

It's funny because most people who smoke pot around here are very cool induvials. The smoke there pot, don't bother anyone, easy to get along with, and also have enough respect to know that people don't smoke pot and wouldn't wish things bad to happen to people who didn't smoke.

I don't think you would find it very nice if you lost WDF and someone posted a comment like: "Good, I'm glad he lost it cause he doesn't smoke pot". Think about it for a few mins. Plus smoking pot isn't illeagal worldwide like homicide is. How often do you hear the news about someone dead because they smoked pot. I would be suprised if you found any cases of some sort. (being that pot killed someone). Though, you can find tons of cases about smoking ciggerates and drinking.

I'd appreciate some respect. The moderator status alone should convey respect, whether I'm 21 or 12.
You moderator status means nothing. In order to get respect, you have to give respect. Having that status means you make sure users follow the site rules, as long as I don't break them; I don't have to respect you as a person.

[tgillespie]

Filburt was not debating whether or not smoking pot was good or bad, but the fact that the site was promoting an illegal activity of exchanging marijuana.

Again, I would love for someone to give me an example of where marijuana is legal.

[Logikos]

Amsterdam, You can walk into certain coffee shops and toke away at some hash brownies. Personaly experiance.

[tgillespie]

Amsterdam, You can walk into certain coffee shops and toke away at some hash brownies. Personaly experiance.Again, it is not legal in the Netherlands to smoke marijuana. Secondly, how do you toke a hash brownie? Local law enforcement looks the other way at cannabis coffee shops in Amsterdam, but if you did a little bit of reading, you will find that it is a misdemeanor offence to obtain marijuana in the Netherlands.

[Logikos]

I'm not gonna sit here and argue with people where pot is or isn't legal. Technically, it's illegal to sell and consume pot, but years of tolerance have taught the Dutch to look the other way. At least that's what they print in the tourist books. In reality, use is permitted only in designated areas so Dutch officials can keep an eye on people.

My whole post before wasn't a debate whether or not pot is bad. It was the fact that people demand so much respect yet show so little of it.

[ConKien]

I thought weed was legal in canada? I don't smoke, I dunno...

From what I heard, you can plant them in your house, but only one or two, u'll get in jail if they found out you have more than their limit.

[tgillespie]

I'm not gonna sit here and argue with people where pot is or isn't legal. Technically, it's illegal to sell and consume pot, but years of tolerance have taught the Dutch to look the other way. At least that's what they print in the tourist books. In reality, use is permitted only in designated areas so Dutch officials can keep an eye on people.

My whole post before wasn't a debate whether or not pot is bad. It was the fact that people demand so much respect yet show so little of it.Not trying to get in an argument at all. Nothing but information exchange here :) On a lighter note, how does one toke a hash brownie? :rolleyes:

[Brad]

Not trying to get in an argument at all. Nothing but information exchange here :) On a lighter note, how does one toke a hash brownie? :rolleyes:

You don't, you eat them. ;)

[tgillespie]

You don't, you eat them. ;)
Hense why I questioned him :cross-eyed: Would love to see someone try to shove a brownie into a bowl.

[Logikos]

Or to just be a smartass... ;)

[SouthernTn]

you can get busted down here in TN with like An oz or something and police dont do anything.. But, if its with "intent" to sell, then, maybe they'll book you.

But personally.. Alcohol and Cigarettes should be banned before Weed.. IMO

[Ghostsuit]

If someone puts up a website that in any way, shape or form helps kids do drugs, I'm with filburt and am happy to see it go. One kid, one hundred kids, it doesn't matter. You'll be against all drinks advertising and drinks related sites as well then, oh and anyone discussing glue etc.

I don't take drugs never have but I do have the ability to realise that jsut because something is a Law doesn't make it right. It's legal to smoke and drink and they kill far more people than a joint ever did.

Still thats not the point if an illegal act was being carried out "distribution" then obviously the justise system had to take action, No smoke without fire and all that.

[geezzaa]

Since og went down my site has increased in members looking for a place to grow. Shame all that great info is lost.

Did you know that sites like min and overgrow are actually causing a large drop in drug related crime, Mainly because people are growing there own and advoiding having to deal with criminals.

90% of Ganja smokers do not have a criminal record and never go on to harder drugs. I know smokers that are in the police and use cannabis to relax after a hard day shovelling people up from under buses.

21% of Drinkers become alcoholics

i think under 18s Should not be allowed to view forums such as mine or overgrow, and that they should stick to the freebie tour on porn sites or those sites where someones having there head hacked off with a carving knife , maybe even some of the sites that tell them how to make pipe bombs and fireworks. We dont want our kids to be junkies do we ?

[Ted S]

90% of Ganja smokers do not have a criminal record and never go on to harder drugs. I know smokers that are in the police and use cannabis to relax after a hard day shovelling people up from under buses.

21% of Drinkers become alcoholics


Can you please provide a citation for those statistics?

[MPDev]

If you use are software to discuss pot....your license will be revoked..

Given that vBulletion is the forum of choice for terrorist organizations, I would think talking about pot would be the least of sins discussed on vB forums worldwide.

[Quillz]

Good to see illegal practices shut down.

[Edward S]

He wasn't very bright then, fancy running an illegal site on servers in the same country .....

Ditto, ditto... Course, thats what smoking your own stash can do, "make ya stoopid". I don't smoke, and when I did experiment, I didn't inhale...
This probably all has to do with one country cooperating with another to get this kinda stuff off the internet. I wish they'd find that guy who's spamming me with Viagra and Penis enlargement emails and get him off the net.. Its only one person, but it would sure be a big help.

On a different note, the server seized.. was there "legitimate" websites on the server too?... Wierd if there was, would make you wanna know who you were signing up with as a host. Cause, yer legal but the other guy on the server wasn't.. but there goes yer stuff as well. Hard work, pictures, files, etc.. etc.. Not to mention maybe the fees you paid for a year's lease, or loss of income as your customer base (user lists) evaporate before your eyes, sales records?... gee.. a whole buncha stuff, gone up in.. uh, er.. smoke.

A simple thread like this, "server seized" can open a whole new can-o-worms.
I'm glad my host only allows pornograpy, everyone else?... :banana:

[AdminNation]

Given that vBulletion is the forum of choice for terrorist organizations, I would think talking about pot would be the least of sins discussed on vB forums worldwide.

I'd be interested to here which ones, since the only ones I've come accross tend to use free software like YaBB, phpBB, and SMF.

[shortbus1662]

I support free speech. I do not support speech of any kind on illegal topics. You could distort it to a view that discussing illegal activities is a form of conspiracy to commit the crimes in question.

Let's say I opened up a forum about homicide. That's a crime. Would your opinion change?

Then you do not support free speech.

If something is illegal, and it should not be, how can you change it if you can't talk about it?

What if it was illegal to discuss freedom for black people in America? What if it was illegal to discuss women having the right to vote?

Would you have been in favor of discussing those or not? Black people could not legally become citizens, they were PROPERTY. Women could not vote. You would have been against that because it was speech discussing a topic that was illegal?

I personally do not smoke marijuana but have done it before.

I wish it was legalized in the United States. We spend far too much fighting against it and it is virtually harmless compared to alchohol, pain pills, crack, crank, cocaine, heroin, lsd, pcp, etc. etc. etc.

The government could regulate it and profit from it while at the same time keeping tabs on who grows and sells it. It would ease prison overcrowding and allow the police to focus their efforts on drugs that are REALLY harming people.

I didn't make it past the post of yours that I'm replying to filburt but I definately see some flaws in your logic...

[smacklan]

If it were legal in the US then we would have that many more dope heads driving down the streets with the drunks...not a great idea imho ;) (and yes, I smoked it for many, many years and know what it does and doesn't do to your motor skills and perception of reality...thankfully I had enough brain cells left to realize what a stupid habit it is and gave it up 10 years ago).

[shortbus1662]

I think the desire to drive is about a million times lower on weed and compared to alchohol, there really is no comparison.

I never got the urge to get high and drive around. I never got the urge to get high and get into a fight. I never got the urge to get high and do anything other than eat, watch TV, or talk about ridiculous stuff.

What does illegally driving while high on drugs have to do with whether or not a drug should be legalized?

Guns are legal, but people are shot with them.
Cars are legal, but people are ran over with them.
Knives are legal, but people are stabbed to death.

Clorox is legal, but you don't go serving drinks out of it.

There is no movement to make the use of chainsaws illegal because some people might use them to cut something other than trees with...

What might be done illegally with the substance should have little bearing on the legality of possession of a potentially useful substance.

[Boofo]

The moderator status alone should convey respect, whether I'm 21 or 12.

Moderator status here and a quarter will buy you a dime cup of coffee. ;)

[smacklan]

What does illegally driving while high on drugs have to do with whether or not a drug should be legalized?

because it impairs you? Take a look at what you just wrote and tell me if it makes even the remotest sense. Plus, anyone who says smoking pot doesn't lead to harder drugs is either (a)a fool, or (b)didn't smoke it long enough to need something stonger. I smoked it for 25 years regularly. I felt the same way you do when I smoked it. I also got tired of it and moved on to anything and everything else just to maintain a decent buzz and it nearly killed me. Every drug addict I ever met (and I've known more than a few in my day) all started out smoking pot. Yes, legalizing pot is a cop out and just plain stupid.

[shortbus1662]

no it's not. It makes total sense.

I smoked it enough times to know about it.

If you are an addict, maybe yes you will seek other drugs, but if you are looking to get high you're going to get high regardless of whether or not you smoked pot, took pain pills, or drank alchohol to get you started.

Just because you couldn't manage to keep from using other illicit drugs means that the rest of the country can't?

Personally, I believe that I ought to have the freedom do put marijuana in my body if I want to. I can chug a bottle of drano or other solvent type substance. I can smoke a cigarette. I can drink a beer. I can do a gagillion other things that might harm my body, and yet I cannot smoke some marijuana?

It's ridiculous. Pretty soon the government will deem it illegal to smoke tobacco because it harms you. Ten years later, NO CAFFIENE. What next?

I'd rather save that choice for myself.

It is a proven fact that marijuana is NOT PHYSICALLY ADDICTIVE.

I can understand cocaine and substances like that, where your body NEEDS the substance, and people steal, kill, etc. for the drug, but marijuana does not fit that category.

By your argument, it should be illegal to drink coca cola because the high the caffiene gives you will make you want to drink something even better and so you will then turn to beer, then to hard liquor, etc.

That is a personal problem. If you cannot control your own actions and keep from participating in HIHGLY illegal and harmful activities for a good buzz, then that is your problem, not socieities.

People who want to smoke marijuana are smoking it already. If I wanted to get high I could have weed in my hand in less than 30 minutes.

The only reason I don't smoke it is because it IS illegal.

I have two young girls and if I had to choose pot or booze for them to do when they get older, I'd choose pot every time. It is ABSOLUTELY the lesser of two evils.

The only negative impact I see of marijuana use in MODERATION is eating.

[smacklan]

It is a proven fact that marijuana is NOT PHYSICALLY ADDICTIVE.

I would love to see some credible evidence backing up your claim.

I have two young girls and if I had to choose pot or booze for them to do when they get older, I'd choose pot every time. It is ABSOLUTELY the lesser of two evils.

geez...I hope you change your stance on that statement because if you do your job right, they won't want or need want either....

[shortbus1662]

I certainly hope you are right and they don't want/need either, I was just trying to make a statement comparing the evils of the two.

I will look for the medical evidence regarding the addiction part but I wrote a paper on it in college and am 99.9999% sure :)

[smacklan]

I certainly hope you are right and they don't want/need either, I was just trying to make a statement comparing the evils of the two.

I will look for the medical evidence regarding the addiction part but I wrote a paper on it in college and am 99.9999% sure :)

I hope so too...I have two young daughters as well. I don't know if I can make a comparison of the evils between the two as I never have been much of a drinker but drug addiction and alcoholism are both very destructive.

You may be right, but the mental addiction is real and the danger of experimenting with harder drugs is real as well...thats the greatest danger, imho, to making it that much easier via legalization, for people who might not otherwise experiment with it.

[filburt1]

Name one biologically good reason for a healthy person to use drugs.

Ergo, argument over.

[Boofo]

Name one biologically good reason for a healthy person to use drugs.

Ergo, argument over.

Because they are old and stupid like me and need something to keep them alive? ;)

[Brad]

I know I could use some pain killers right now. These wisdom teeth are killing me.

[TruthElixirX]

Because they are old and stupid like me and need something to keep them alive? ;)
Emphasis on "healthy". If you need a drug to keep you alive you probably don't fall int othat category then. ;).

[Brad]

Emphasis on "healthy". If you need a drug to keep you alive you probably don't fall int othat category then. ;).
I have to disagree with that one. A person can be healthy and still require certain drugs to live, or at least prevent health issues later in life.

I am a prime example of this. If not for the pills I take for acid reflux I'd be looking at a much shorter life span. I also have to get vitamin B12 injections because my body does not process it correctly. I have to by-pass the stomach by injecting it into my leg, or arm if the nurse does it for me.

[Freesteyelz]

Believe it or not, it is drugs that keep human beings alive longer. It's not to say, however, that their longitivity ensures quality of life. See, drugs are nothing more than combinations of concentrated (natural) substances. The way they interact with with our bodies will vary since everyone has a different chemical structure. There isn't a science to it if man is involved in the process.

[T.S.]

Name one biologically good reason for a healthy person to use drugs.

Ergo, argument over.
The same argument could be made for many currently legal things. :rolleyes:

[tgillespie]

The same argument could be made for many currently legal things. :rolleyes:He didn't state illegal goods, but instead drugs in general. Do you take medicine when you are well? When the body is healthy, why polute it with bad substances?

[SixteenOhNine]

The same could really be said about tobacco, alcohol and whatnot. Given I don't smoke it myself, what one perceives as bad may be perceived as good to another.

Alcohol is legal and impairs your ability and judgement, marijuana is illegal and impairs your ability and judgement. When people drink, they normally smoke (cigarettes that is - most people, not all) so I honestly don't really see the issue.

Legal or illegal, people are still going to smoke marijuana. The government makes plenty off of the sale of alcohol, however, so illegalizing it would decrease their intake on taxes. Not everyone can simply produce their own alcohol, it'd be more expensive in the end. It's not that hard to grow a plant with a few seeds.

It'd be a bit harder to tax plant growth given it could easily be slung around everywhere (as it already is) given it's natural production and does not require intervention by man as alcohol does.

Maybe a bold statement, though I figure everyone knows the government makes a great deal from taxation of cigarettes and alcohol then turns right around and says don't drink and drive, smoking is dangerous, etc...Very contradicting to their method, however it sells.

[cannabis-world]

consuming refined sugar, refined salt and hydrogenated fats is far worse for one's health than smoking cannabis...if one eats at mcdonalds on a regular basis ,for instance,they are a drain on the healthcare (diseasecare actually) system, maybe they should be forced to seek mandatory counselling for their habits of consumption...:eek:

[MPDev]

Since when did the 'illegal' label equate to being 'bad' for you? It's like saying everything 'legal' is 'good' for you.

[Freesteyelz]

Illegal --> Caught --> Arrested --> Indicted --> Prosecuted --> Sentenced --> <if>Jail or Prison</if> --> Bubba & Big Leroy = Bad

[sandrodz]

that's unfair... over here in EU you can smoke in front of the police office and no one will ever say a word... you can get Extasy and LSD no problem, just ask a classmate... than people wonder why EU GDP is going down.

[smacklan]

consuming refined sugar, refined salt and hydrogenated fats is far worse for one's health than smoking cannabis
okay...lets see some medical research to back up this claim....

[Bluestrike2]

He didn't state illegal goods, but instead drugs in general. Do you take medicine when you are well? When the body is healthy, why polute it with bad substances?

If we are discussing illicit drugs, anyone with even pathetic skills at infering data can realize that he is talking about illicit. Quit trying to play with semantics. We're not policy debating here...

[cannabis-world]

okay...lets see some medical research to back up this claim....

you might want to read this little story here first:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-grinspoon5may05,0,7185234.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

then show us some incidences of people actually dying from smoking cannabis...

ever see that documentary 'super size me'?

[shortbus1662]

what makes a drug "illicit"? Is it an opinion?

Is marijuana an "illicit" drug? If so, how why is it one?

Also, to correct a poster from earlier:

Not all drugs are concentrated natural substances. Many drugs are synthetic.

I was referring to prescription drugs, but I thought of one horrible drug that fits that category and that is crank, or methamphetamine. People are making that $#!+ out of clorox, psuedophederine, annyhdrous ammonia, etc. That's nuts.

Marijuana is a naturally growing plant, kinda like shrooms, that is essentially harmless when used as mother nature intended.

The marijuana plant also has some pretty phenomenal uses.

As far as the government losing money on alchohol tax because of pot, that's simply a misguided statement. Alchohol tax would likely not be affected at all.

Regarding regulation and taxation of marijuana and it not being feasable, again misguided.

If the government legalized it, cigarette companies would likely become the main distributor. There would be competition on a large scale and the cost of pot would go WAY, WAY DOWN. People wouldn't waste their time growing pot and smoking it or selling it on their own...at least on a scale large enough to make a difference. It would simply be cheap enough not to go through the hassle of doing it yourself. PLUS, it would remain illegal. The legal aspect, combined with the decreased cost, would rule out any reason to do it yourself.

The federal government could add on a 50% tax and you could buy a box of 20 marijuana cigarettes for say, 10 dollars. 50 cents a joint.

The population of the U.S. is almost 300 million, correct? (irrelevant really, but I'm guessing about 25% of people over 18 smoke pot (see: college) Let's say roughly 50 million people, just for fun. A hell, let's go a different route...

(searching for fact)

found:

Police arrested about a quarter of a million people in the U.S. for mary jane in '04, 771,608 to be exact.

Using ONLY THOSE PEOPLE for estimates now:

If each one of them spends 200 dollars a year on AVERAGE then that equates to:

77 million dollars in tax revenue. While that is certainly not enough to balance the budget, it is DEFINATELY a huge increase in the amount of funds we would use to fight the war on other drugs, or towards anti drug campaigns.

Now lets assume, yes, we are assuming, but we aren't being outlandish by any means, we're likely UNDER ESTIMATING...that only 25% of pot smokers were arrested last year.

That number just went to about 310 million dollars.

Now, let's estimate that only 10% of pot smokers were arrested.

Now we are looking at 3/4 of a billion dollars in tax revenue.

If the average dollars spent per person per year was twice my 200 dollar (random number) now you are looking at 1.5 billion dollars.

You can do a lot with 1.5 billion dollars.

Apply it towards healthcare, education, police budgets, social security, whatever you apply it towards, you have now made a SIGNIFICANT difference in that aspect of our society, all by putting a tax on a product that is already being used in MASS QUANTITIES.

Sure, these numbers are based on NOTHING, other than the number of arrests in '04, and loosely on that, but surely that gives you some kind of an idea of the possibilities.

One person is arrested every 41 seconds or something like that.

89% of those arrests were for POSSESSION ONLY.

We WASTED OUR TIME arresting almost 700k people last year simply because they had mary jane in their possession.

What is the cost associated with one arrest? You have the opportunity cost in terms of man hours being used up on that when they could have been doing something else; the time it took to arrest someone, search a vehicle, paperwork, etc.

They could have been doing something productive towards society like arresting REAL CRIMINALS who hurt children and the elderly, sexual predators, violent criminals who shoot or stab people, POSSIBLY FOR MONEY FOR CRANK OR HEROIN OR some kind of REALLY HARMFUL ADDICTIVE DRUG.

REALLY think about it.

We aren't talking about people driving while high, or people harming others.

We are talking about people who were simply in possession of the substance.

[Freesteyelz]

Not all drugs are concentrated natural substances. Many drugs are synthetic.


Anything man-made (synthetic) comes from natural substances.

[shortbus1662]

Anything man-made (synthetic) comes from natural substances.

syn?thet?ic (sĭn-thĕt'ĭk) pronunciation
adj.

Chemistry. Produced by synthesis, especially not of natural origin.
Not natural or genuine; artificial or contrived: ?counterfeit rhetoric that flourishes when passions are synthetic? (George F. Will).
Prepared or made artificially: synthetic leather. See synonyms at artificial.

refer mainly to the ESPECIALLY NOT OF NATURAL ORIGIN part.

:banana:

wait, did it say, "especially not of natural origin"?

OH! I think it did!!!!!!!!!!

don't get mad at me, I'm just being an ass.

[Chris M]

He never said it occurs naturally, only that is created from something that does occur naturally ;)

And that is something you can't disagree with - If it didn't occur naturally at some point in the ingredients then there would be no ingredients to make the synthetic substance :p

Chris

[Freesteyelz]

@ shortbus1662: Substances that are chemically produced come from natural sources. Break down all elements and they will point to a natural origin.

Chris knows the deal. :)

[Chris M]

What I said but with a more direct and scientific tone :p

Chris

[Freesteyelz]

I give you that. I didn't realize that you posted until I did mine. My hats off to you. :)

"Chris knows the deal. :)" was included after I had posted the original message. :D

[shortbus1662]

well nothing on this earth came from something not of this earth (yeah, moon rocks, mars dust, whatever, but let's not get that picky)

Sure, it all came from something that was once natural in some form or another, but you people are arguing semantics here.

[Freesteyelz]

It's not a matter of interpretation but stated facts. So in a sense I'm arguing syntax rather than semantecs. :)

[Chris M]

Perhaps, however Synthetically created drugs can be just as dangerous to fool around with as naturally occuring drugs, and the fact that they are synthetic and have to be made from naturally occuring substances does not increase or lessen that...

Chris

[Freesteyelz]

I think Chris is talking to you, shortbus1662. :D

*Sits aside for a moment...*

[Chris M]

Indeed I was ;)

Like you earlier, I didn't see your reply when I was typing mine :p

Chris

[Freesteyelz]

Heh. I vote to request the hack that update posts while user is posting to be installed here. :classic:

[Chris M]

It would be useful - Request it in the Site Feedback forum and that way we can get an overview of who supports, whos against and what-have-you :)

Chris

[Asi9ine]

Someone should code an addon for vB like the DopeWars game, if anyone has heard about it.

You run a drugs cartel, and you can do things like sell it on the streets, mug rivals, etc.

And when you get stoned, your post count goes up in two everytime you post!

Or something... has anyone heard of this game?

[Chris M]

No however it does sound like it could be interesting - Go code it :p

I'm a lazy stressed student else I would ;)

Chris

[Asi9ine]

Fine! You know what? Maybe I will!

Fine!

Oh... shit. Look what I have done now.

[Chris M]

If you made a mess on the carpet your cleaning it up ;)

Chris

[Freesteyelz]

While I haven't played it, I know DopeWars. For more information regarding the game go here (http://dopewars.sourceforge.net/).

[Asi9ine]

Or treadon.us :)

NON-MOD NOTE: No advertising! That means you Kris!

Who's with me on this? Anyone want to help?

And on topic: I removed Overgrow from my AdminCP homepage. I don't advocate the use of drugs in any way, I haven't taken Paracetamol for a very long time, caffeine is seeming a little OTT for me. Illegal stuff is a big deal.

[Freesteyelz]

No drug use, eh? So much for taking things in moderation. LOL.

On a serious note: Drugs are necessary to sustain life whether it be longivity or quality.

[Asi9ine]

Bruce Lee never used artificial substances in his life. Ever. My Karate teachings are to know that if your body wants to tell you it's in pain, do not mask it. Strengthen yourself so that that pain gets weaker each time you hurt there.

So one day, he had a headache. He took a painkiller, and died. My sources are questionable, but I believe it to be true.

[shortbus1662]

NO, you aren't. Look up the word semantics and syntax.

And by arguing the type of freaking argument you are trying to lose....you are AGAIN, dealing in semantics.

You're wrong, so just admit it.

[Freesteyelz]

@Asi9ine: My definition of drugs is anything medicinal, whether scientific or alternative. Herbal tea is considered a form of medicine in many societies. I'm not certain either but I believe Bruce Lee experimented with his diet. :)

@shortbus1662: Apples and oranges is an argument of semantics; aples and oanges is an argument of syntax. With my previous statements I've stated facts. How you interpret them is not my problem. You're dealing with the issue of semantics. My interpretation of the facts are true. I'm just breaking down the pattern of your post which is a matter of syntax. :)

Now, just before we go any further, saying "just admit it" won't get you far in any argument. Also, one of my areas of study is structure of chemicals, environment and the manipulation of. My understanding of it is above average. :classic:

[shortbus1662]

Well I would say I'm somewhat familiar with pharmacology and medicine. I quite often spend a good part of a regular day discussing it. My understanding of it is above average.

You can call something created in a laboratory "natural" all you want. It doesn't make you right.


@shortbus1662: Apples and oranges is an argument of semantics; aples and oanges is an argument of syntax.

EXACTLY!

Attempting to build yourself up by explaining your area of study won't get you any further than I will by saying, "just admit it".

It just makes you sound arrogant.

I'm not going to continue this debate with you because you'll dance around things for eternity and there is no way you will EVER believe for a second that you could possibly be wrong.

I can tell that by "breaking down the pattern of your posts".

If you wanna say that drugs created in a lab are natural, fine. You can say that all you want. You'll be wrong.

I enjoyed the "discussion".

BTW Chris, I totally agree with you...hence the part I wrote regarding methamphetamines and the dangers of...so I'm not quite sure what you're attempting to say with your comments.

[Freesteyelz]

"You can call something created in a laboratory "natural" all you want. It doesn't make you right."

And

"If you wanna say that drugs created in a lab are natural, fine. You can say that all you want. You'll be wrong."

Where in my posts did I state that the synthetic process is natural? I basically stated that all things processed come from a natural source. These are two different arguments.

Attempting to build yourself up by explaining your area of study won't get you any further than I will by saying, "just admit it".

It just makes you sound arrogant.

This is a flawed argument. The arrogance come from the statement "just admit it". Any logical thinker would find this true.

Stating an area of study is a submission of fact. There is no arrogance here. I would not have spoken in (factual) tone for this subject matter if I didn't have my degrees to back me up.

[cannabis-world]

Wednesday, May 3, 2006
Alan Young
National Post
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...0-26edc0827fa1

Stephen Harper has decided to turn marijuana law reform into a mere pipe-dream for 3 million pot-smoking Canadians. This is a tragic mistake: Only in the world of science fiction can a plant become public enemy number one. But the oracle has now spoken, and Canadians will probably have to endure another decade of a misguided drug strategy that converts cannabis consumers into common criminals.

Fortunately, however, Harper's regressive approach to cannabis prohibition should have no impact on the increasing number of Canadians who rely upon marijuana for medical purposes. In 2000, the Ontario Court of Appeal declared that seriously ill Canadians have a constitutional right to choose marijuana as medicine. To discharge this constitutional obligation, Health Canada has been compelled to manage and maintain a program that exempts legitimate medical use from the criminal law.

Contrary to the views of ill-informed detractors, medical marijuana use is not simply a reflection of the obvious fact that intoxicating substances can make sick people feel temporarily better. The cannabinoids present in marijuana plants not only lead to giggles and a deep appreciation of Pink Floyd; these unique chemical compounds can control and curb nausea, neuropathic pain, spasticity and inflammation. As an appetite stimulant, marijuana can combat the ravages of the wasting syndrome that plagues many patients undergoing chemotherapy and HIV/AIDS antiretroviral treatment.

To date, the medical applications of cannabis have related to symptom control and not curative properties. But last year there was much excitement when Spanish and Israeli scientists both discovered that a synthetic cannabinoid can actually shrink cancerous tumours.

The problem with marijuana as medicine is the paucity of clinical research. We know pot works and we know it has a high margin of safety, but we don't really know how it works. In the past century, governments funded endless research in the attempt to prove that marijuana is sufficiently harmful to warrant criminal intervention, but these same governments turned a blind eye to any research into medical benefits. Thousands of years of medical use of marijuana was disregarded, or even hidden, in the futile effort to convince people that marijuana was a soul-destroying narcotic.

In the process of re-writing history, governments exposed millions of patients to needless suffering.

Governments simply assumed that Big Pharma would eventually develop synthetic products that would have greater therapeutic efficacy than marijuana. But with the recall of highly-touted painkillers such as Vioxx and Celebrex, one can now see it is a mistake to rely upon laboratory creations and ignore the benefits of a naturally occurring plant that has been used for medicine since 3000 B.C.

We need to understand marijuana's mechanism of action in order to develop medical products that are effective and safe. Many patients will not tolerate smoking joints as a medical treatment. New delivery systems must be developed.

For this reason, I became involved in founding Canada's first publicly traded company dedicated to research and development with marijuana -- Cannasat Therapeutics. Despite my general suspicion of big business, I even became a shareholder.

My interest in corporate pot has little to do with the widely-shared belief that cannabinoid medicines are destined to become the lucrative, blockbuster drugs of the 21st century. Rather, I know it will take the resources of big business to unravel the mysteries of marijuana's valuable medical applications in the same way that many of our hospitals needed to be built on a foundation of corporate donations.

Canada is the ideal jurisdiction for advancing cannabinoid research, as we are the only country in the world where patients have a constitutional right to use marijuana as medicine, and where the government has a constitutional obligation to produce this medicine or to facilitate reasonable access through other channels.

Some of the grassroots constituency of pot smokers, whose interests I have represented over the years, have accused me of being a sell-out for introducing the business community to a plant adored and worshipped by the counterculture. Of course, I still remain committed to liberating the plant from the clutches of criminal law control -- but that is an entirely different issue from the alleviation of pain and suffering. As Moses Znaimer, Chairman of Cannasat Therapeutics, recently noted: "This is not about fun -- it is about function."

It takes little creativity and initiative to have fun with pot, but it will take years of clinical testing and millions of dollars to develop cannabinoid products that help seriously ill medical patients. It's not hard to act like Cheech and Chong, but it takes lots of effort to become the next Banting and Best.

Finally, the world has woken up to the therapeutic potential of cannabis. Research conducted by Cannasat, other pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions will transform the nature of our pharmacopoeia. Move over Gravol, and make way for ganja.


Alan Young teaches law at Osgoode Hall Law School and criminology at the University of Toronto. His work contributed to the establishment of Canada's first medical marijuana program.


Btw Bruce Lee was a known hashish eater, this is well documented.

[Boofo]

Btw Bruce Lee was a known hashish eater, this is well documented.

And look where he is now. ;)

[ninjashoes]

marijuana is harmful for your body

-Its only harmful to your lungs and you can get around this by using a vaporizer. Do a little research!

marijuana impairs your driving

-no it doesent but I agree that it's best to drive when you are 100% sober. Do a little research!

marijuana leads to harder drugs

-This is the propaganda artist favorite! Where is the logic here? You think that someone who likes getting high is going to need something stronger? Why would you automatically assume this? Yes some people want to get so messed up that they want to forget their lives but these people have mental problems and thats the cause of their addiction.

If you are an enemy of free speech then you are an enemy of freedom. If you don't know nothing about the plant you should not be commentating on it. If you do something and it doesent harm other people it is not wrong or evil.

[Freezerator]

THC and Nicotine are always bad, not only for your lungs...

Maybe does marijuana impairs your driving, but for a lot of other people it does.

The last point i can agree, but it is also a fact (in holland then) then a lot of people who use marjiuana have experimented with other drugs...

[Brad]

marijuana is harmful for your body

-Its only harmful to your lungs and you can get around this by using a vaporizer. Do a little research!

I would not go so far to say it's not harmful to your body. We do not know everything about the drug, or our bodies for that matter. Who knows what sort of things it really does to our minds in the long run. There is a big lack of study in the area.

marijuana impairs your driving

-no it doesent but I agree that it's best to drive when you are 100% sober. Do a little research!

It does impair your driving, don't kid yourself. Although it isn't as bad as driving around drunk. I've drove drunk, stoned, and on other things (only god knows how I managed not getting a DUI in my time). As someone that has done these things I can tell you I was not 100% when I was behind the wheel, on pot, whiskey, using a cell phone or otherwise.

marijuana leads to harder drugs

-This is the propaganda artist favorite! Where is the logic here? You think that someone who likes getting high is going to need something stronger? Why would you automatically assume this? Yes some people want to get so messed up that they want to forget their lives but these people have mental problems and that's the cause of their addiction.

This is a spin job, with some truth in it. Allow me to explain:

Smoking pot is not going to turn you into a rock head or seal your fate as an heroin addict. However given the fact that pot is not legal in most places you're are more or less forced to buy it via the black market. Selling pot is not a high profit business by any means, so most people that do sell it also deal in other drugs.

This is why they say it leads to other drugs. Once you're in that environment (buying via the black market) you'll likely be told about other illegal drugs by your smoking buddies and/or dealers. Buying pot is going to put you in a position where you'll see and be able to buy other drugs. Of course it's a personal choice to try other drugs, a choice many people make everyday.

My point? Do whatever you want, but don't belive you're above the law and that it's not harmful.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

This is still a family rated website. And minors might be reading here.

Now that this is turning into a drugs discussion thread, i think it is time to place the lock.