FREE vB licenses for Hack/Mod creators

[Razasharp]

Just wondering what everyone thinks about this, and particularly the hack community who dedicate a lot of time making hacks, releasing them then supporting them.

Do you think Jelsoft should give a free vB licence to Hack Authors? Perhaps say after 100 downloads/installs? And perhaps larger hack Authors with say 1000 or more downloads get some monetary compensation for their efforts? (exact numbers could be agreed on later)

I'm sure many of you will agree that the hack community is one of the most important aspects of a successful platform such as a forum (Don't take my word for it, vb.org has over 100,000 members!)

I think an incentive such as this for contributors will not only be of benefit to Jelsoft but to us as the end users as well - I mean where would we (including Jelsoft) be without our hack/mod creators?

I think this is forward thinking and protecting not only Jelsofts future but ours as users too.

Your thoughts please

:)

[amykhar]

Not necessarily a license, but the annual renewal fee would be cool.

[Razasharp]

Not necessarily a license, but the annual renewal fee would be cool.

That's very humble of you Amy, but I think you guys really do deserve more than that ;)

[nexialys]

this is stupid... a license for 100 installs... i would gain hundreds of licenses just for that...

no coder would be interested to that for what reason ?... we can't sell our licenses, as there is no reseller system for vbulletin.

[vBintense]

I think it is a nice thought , but by no way would it be practicle. I could see perhaps awarding one a year to someone who has coded x ammount of add ons or templates and shown very good manners and community spirit.

[Razasharp]

this is stupid... a license for 100 installs... i would gain hundreds of licenses just for that...

no coder would be interested to that for what reason ?... we can't sell our licenses, as there is no reseller system for vbulletin.

Hols on a sec Nex, I pulled the figure out of thin air as I have no idea what the 'average' download /install numbers are- but like I said the amounts could be agreed upon later.

We are discussing the idea here, not the figures.

[Logikos]

I wouldn't be interested in another vBulletin license. I've already own the same license for years now. I don't plan on opening any more forums so the licenses would be no good to me.

I do however like amykhars suggestion. Give us Master Coders 30% off the renewl fee so I only have to pay for like $20 /y instead of 30 /y :p

[nexialys]

We are discussing the idea here, not the figures.
YOU are discussing it, nobody else asked for it... we already have two threads related to coders gifts etc...

btw, i don't see why offer a gift to coders that do that kind of stuff... you'Re too generous with the stuff of others... Jelsoft can handle their own promotions without new members suggestions ...

[Paul M]

YOU are discussing it, nobody else asked for it... we already have two threads related to coders gifts etc...

btw, i don't see why offer a gift to coders that do that kind of stuff... you'Re too generous with the stuff of others... Jelsoft can handle their own promotions without new members suggestions ...
Why don't you stop rubbishing other peoples threads for once. If you don't want to discuss it, feel free to leave this thread alone. :rolleyes:

The idea has been mentioned before. It would be nice to get say 10% off the yearly renewal for every 1000 installs (or whatever). A licence per 1000 installs is not going to interest most people as they have all the licences they need (what would I do with another 7 licences ..... :))

[amykhar]

For once, I have to agree with Paul.

[Princeton]

For once, I have to agree with Paul.
OUCH

give me unlimited access to vbulletin licenses (at least a few) and I'd breakdance for you:banana:

[Vizionz]

ya know everyone appreciates the work of coders but the truth of the matter is yall are coding to better your own sites first then offer to the community its a give and take situation most just take since alot dont have coding expierience. but when one coder codes something he also installs a bunch of already coded hacks that someone else made (most likely) i dont think the coders deserve any type of license adjustment. just for the fact that vbulletin coders made the forum too better your sites and give you a excellent forum software. if vbulletin wanted arcades or all these hacks generally they would of coded them directly into the system. this site is a place for everyone to shair there ideas and coding to help better the community and make vbulletin the best community. just like php has there community and post nuke php nuke mambo and every other major forum or content management system...

if a coder wants to achieve cash or discounts for stuff. sincce you have the ability to code you take on your own time a custum script for someones site. i dont know but most of tjhe good coders here can whip out awesome stuff. so making 30 bucks wouldnt be extremely difficult for there coding.

i know i would pay someones renewal license for the next three years if they would do custum work for me. but all aaround there shouldnt be a reward for community submissions thats my opinion. its all great work but with the amount of coders giving rewards would bankrupt vbulletin. once they sell the license thats it. if your a coder and just hack your own board for the rest of the time. you would never have to pay again which would decrese vbulletins revenue which i dont see them wanting to do for some coding. i am sure they would rather do there own addons then pay others

[Blaine0002]

Why don't you stop rubbishing other peoples threads for once. If you don't want to discuss it, feel free to leave this thread alone. :rolleyes:

The idea has been mentioned before. It would be nice to get say 10% off the yearly renewal for every 1000 installs (or whatever). A licence per 1000 installs is not going to interest most people as they have all the licences they need (what would I do with another 7 licences ..... :))

agreed.

[filburt1]

Damned unlikely; plus, you would have to reward quality of work, not quantity.

[Logikos]

Damned unlikely; plus, you would have to reward quality of work, not quantity.

Ding Ding Ding!

[Regs]

What's wrong with rewarding quality?

Please don't say "too much work".

Also, I agree with Paul regarding a certain poster getting a bit outta hand lately...

[Logikos]

What's wrong with rewarding quality?

Please don't say "too much work".


Was that in responds to me? If so I see nothing wrong with rewarding quality. Its quanity that shouldn't be rewarded. :)

[snyx]

I think vb.org can see and picks out the dedicated writers.
Free anything based on clicks will inevitably be scammed.

[Tony G]

Damned unlikely; plus, you would have to reward quality of work, not quantity.

Yep, I see it that way too, and I can't see that being done in a way that doesn't inconvienience someone as they have to check for quality.

[Lea Verou]

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=105109

FYI, I agree :p (I can't see any reason why I shoudn't)

[Razasharp]

I think the number of installs a hack gets shows that the hack was worth something, worth something to the community and worth something to Jelsoft (as ultimately, hacks offer increased functionality to their software).

I think there are a good handful of coders here and I think they deserve something for their efforts, particularly from those that benefit the most... that is arguably Jelsoft (because they make money out vB - much more than anyone else, site owner,user,developer/coder, or otherwise).

Without the hacks from the community, Jelsoft would need to commission either a 3rd party or some members of their team to produce/develop the hacks just to keep up with the other forum platforms out there, and I can assure you that a community doing it for you is a whole lot cheaper than paying programmers wages!!

I'm not having a go at Jelsoft, on the contrary I am trying to HELP them strengthen their position as market leader. The hack community is very important to platforms like these and it would be in all our interests if we were encouraging the act. (And who better to do it than those that benefit finiancially from it?)

[Lea Verou]

I think the number of installs a hack gets shows that the hack was worth something, worth something to the community and worth something to Jelsoft (as ultimately, hacks offer increased functionality to their software).


Not necessarily. See this (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=93846&highlight=separate+sticky) for instance. It does have a lot of installs but it's very simple and also is posted by another person at vb.com for vb 3.0.x...

[Razasharp]

Hopefully there will be a safeguard in place for things like that?
Someone just has to sit down and write the rulebook :)

[Logikos]

Not necessarily. See this (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=93846&highlight=separate+sticky) for instance. It does have a lot of installs but it's very simple and also is posted by another person at vb.com for vb 3.0.x...

I personaly wouldn't include template mods. Theres a big diffrence in the amount of work put into php vs a template mod. ;)

[Lea Verou]

I personaly wouldn't include template mods. Theres a big diffrence in the amount of work put into php vs a template mod. ;)

Agreed ;)

[TruthElixirX]

Not always is the case though. loo kat H3RD Garden or w/e his name is. His profile thing may not be a difficult modification but he has provided tons of support for it and has helped integrate galleries and wha tnot.

[Paul M]

Damned unlikely; plus, you would have to reward quality of work, not quantity.I agree it's most unlikely, that's why I said it would be nice - one can but dream :)

[JayJay]

The best way to support the coders here is to click and send them a donation using the donation buttons/links they place on their posts. I think that many overlook this, but even a small donation can often help - even if it goes towards their license renewal in the end :)

[Nick King]

Vbulletin doesn't support hacks, so it would be somewhat illogical to give free liscences to hackers/modders.

[amykhar]

Vbulletin doesn't support hacks, so it would be somewhat illogical to give free liscences to hackers/modders.

Jelsoft did take this forum and transform it from a coder hangout into a customer resource site though. They changed the very nature of vb.org so that it is now a site where hundreds of people show up every day looking for things to enhance their forum.

Those hundreds don't want to code enhancements. They don't want to contribute their work. They just want to use what is here and request what isn't.

When that happened, a lot of the coder community went away. We lost our zeal to collaborate and share. It also tended to drive some coders to a more commercial stance. Some felt we were being marketted as part of the benefit of buying Jelsoft and wanted their share of the pie.

I still contribute stuff mostly because I haven't quite lost hope that either the old gang will drift back, or some new people will step up. But, it may take some sort of reward to get people really contributing major free additions anymore.

You have to understand that there is a lot more to releasing here than just posting code. The support requirments can be overwhelming. So, while I'm never going to say to Jelsoft "reward me or I'll stop sharing", I wouldn't tell them they were off the mark if they were to consider some sort of a reward to entice the serious coders back and to keep them here.

Amy

[Razasharp]

I totally agree Amy, you see Jelsoft have the best of both worlds because this way, they benefit from all the hacks on vb.org yet on the other hand wash their hands of them by saying they do not support hacks, and then point everyone here when people ask for increased functionality.

Peoples needs are changing too - gone are the days where people simply bolt-on a forum to a static html site. Nowadays people want myspace functionality, directories/photos/communities etc.

I think there is a void in the market and if forum software producers are not careful it will be filled by a 3rd party, but not only will it fill the void, it will take the forum market with it.

Hacks are adding some (but not all) of the functionality people need. I really really think coders need motivation, support and real incentives to continue doing what they do, and if possible some 'new' incentives may make them go a little further...

As I have said many times, I'm not having a go at Jelsoft, the staff at vb.com (and in particular Jake) has been a huge help to me, and I feel very loyal because of it - all I am trying to do highlight some very important issues which I feel deserve real consideration, for the benefit for all those involved, and in particular, to those that have the most to lose.

[Revan]

You have to understand that there is a lot more to releasing here than just posting code. The support requirments can be overwhelming. So, while I'm never going to say to Jelsoft "reward me or I'll stop sharing", I wouldn't tell them they were off the mark if they were to consider some sort of a reward to entice the serious coders back and to keep them here.Truth.
Not only the above, but finding motivation and inspiration to do free work on here (which can sometimes be very unrewarding) is equally as hard.
Call me a greedy bastard but I have yet to see anyone code and release a large scale mod for free, and being completely selfless about it.

[Regs]

You're a greedy bastard.

Check out some of Tamarian's releases here for a start.

[EricaJoy]

I agree with this and would support it monetarily if .com wouldn't do it themselves. I think coders that have mods with 200+ installs should get some sort of reward for their efforts. Generally those tend to be the best and most supported modifications so they are helping vbulletin.com in the long run. I know if this site didn't exist and the coders didn't exist, I'd sell my vb license and switch back to phpbb in a heartbeat. Coders efforts rarely get much but a HOTM badge at the most and visibility in the vb community. 30% off license renewal? Chump change IMO. .com should consider themselves lucky if thats the only reward they would ever have to give the people that put in lots of effort to making THEIR product better.

[Razasharp]

Truth.
Not only the above, but finding motivation and inspiration to do free work on here (which can sometimes be very unrewarding) is equally as hard.
Call me a greedy bastard but I have yet to see anyone code and release a large scale mod for free, and being completely selfless about it.

Apart from the odd exception perhaps?.. but why should they? It's not as though vB is open source where producers and coders have a common belief to do it for(free).

As a community we are very grateful to the coders who do do this for free. But. Most of us can see 'well I can understand some of them being reluctant to realease free hacks?' when someone else is profitting from 'their' work.

People can call me a greedy bastard as well if they want, but I wouldn't do work for free to make another company money. I might do it 'just' to help other members of my community for their own sites (as in an open source situation) or I might charge people to use any large hacks (as do many people - just look at the gallery add-ons etc)

Can you see that the situation is different? 'free' Coders aren't just helping community members, but are also helping Jelsoft make more money (in a fairly substantial way, adding value to their product). All I am saying is I hope Jelsoft can recognise this and reward them for their efforts - it will not only encourage more people to do the same but in the long term go towards ensuring vB is still number one months/years from now :)

[Logikos]

Amy and Razasharp bring up some very nice points. I've been slacking with releasing code work cause I don't have the inspiration as I used to. The only thing I can see going sour is. A coder releases a great hack. 1000+ installs, and is supporting it very well. Jelsoft gives that coder a % off his yearly fee. Once they do that, this wonderfull coder is no longer around now?

I see alot of people coding, getting something out of it, and leaving.

[Razasharp]

Amy and Razasharp bring up some very nice points. I've been slacking with releasing code work cause I don't have the inspiration as I used to. The only thing I can see going sour is. A coder releases a great hack. 1000+ installs, and is supporting it very well. Jelsoft gives that coder a % off his yearly fee. Once they do that, this wonderfull coder is no longer around now?

I see alot of people coding, getting something out of it, and leaving.

But in all fairness, it still was worthing something to Jelsoft... and thats the hack itself. That was released and people installed and will continue to install.

I do see your point but there has to be a balance somewhere. Maybe they/you get something after a number of hacks? The details could always be worked out later :)

[Logikos]

Well I guess thats what we call a business. :p Can't make everyone happy. Though I hope someone rewarding is done, it would keep me interested in coding more often for the community. Its a drag supporting all your work, everyday, updating, recoding new work, porting, more supporting, testing...ect...

[Paul M]

I have to say that there are days that I wonder why I bother releasing anything, because at the end of it all you get nothing useful for all the time you spend supporting things. :alien:

Yes, some get to sit at the top of the hottest hacks for a while - and theres that little warm glow as your 7000th install gets clocked up, or you fix the umpteenth broken flashchat installation, but that's about it really. Sadly, it doesn't put food on the table. :lick:

I guess I must just be mad. :banana:



Gee, I'm so depressed now ........ and still another 7+ hours at work :(

[Logikos]

I feel the same way Paul. I argue with myself if I should release this hack I made.

[harmor19]

The reason I make hacks is just to see if I can do it.
If I complete it then I get satifaction.

I write hacks for vbulletin because the coding is easy to learn and the feedback is nice.
I also write hacks for recognition and to increase my knowledge of vbulletin's coding and php itself.

I wrote one successful hack (Custom Navbar Links) which should be standard in vbulletin but a lot more advanced.

Right now the biggest reward I want is that if vbulletin implements my hack into their software they'll mention who inspired the feature.

[Corriewf]

I have to say that there are days that I wonder why I bother releasing anything, because at the end of it all you get nothing useful for all the time you spend supporting things. :alien:

Yes, some get to sit at the top of the hottest hacks for a while - and theres that little warm glow as your 7000th install gets clocked up, or you fix the umpteenth broken flashchat installation, but that's about it really. Sadly, it doesn't put food on the table. :lick:

I guess I must just be mad. :banana:



Gee, I'm so depressed now ........ and still another 7+ hours at work :(


Its funny this thread comes up when people are too lazy to even given thanks....


https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=105887

[Paul M]

Hey, missed that one when you posted it. :)

On the bright side, only 20 minutes now before I go home to my nice warm bed, I feel better already :D

[Corriewf]

Hey, missed that one when you posted it. :)

On the bright side, only 20 minutes now before I go home to my nice warm bed, I feel better already :D


I think you should get compensated from flashchat in some way. You give a lot of support here and there.

[kuheovn]

thanks a lots

[Zachariah]

You guys and gals still trying to get free stuff ? :rolleyes:

[Code Monkey]

I think anyone that releases a good hack should get PIE!

[Razasharp]

Its funny this thread comes up when people are too lazy to even given thanks....


https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=105887


I think many of us say thanks in the Hacks own thread or by PM Corrie.

Besides. I think most coders know their hacks are appreciated (well of course they are - most adults would naturally be grateful for any help they receive..) but perhaps they want a little thanks from the companies whos products they are making more attractive/sellable/profitable?

Anyway I can't fight their battles for them so am gonna pipe down now - I've posted my thoughts about it and I sincerely hope that some of the points get taken on board.

:)

[sniper0]

I'm not reading the whole thread, but bad idea cause that would mean the users would most likely have to pay for the hacks.

[Logikos]

I'm not reading the whole thread, but bad idea cause that would mean the users would most likely have to pay for the hacks.

Maybe you should have read the thread :p. We're not talking about having users pay for anything. :p

[steven s]

I throw some money to the coders of mods or hacks that really enhance my site.
I can think of 3 people I have given money to.
I consider it a tip and appreciation for their efforts and contribution.
That covers 3 renewals right there. Well almost.
Maybe I'll start giving $30 instead of $25.

[pastalover]

I apologize for bringing this thread back to life, but I feel it fitting to express my opinion on the subject.

I know quite a few site owners who use vbulletin for their sites. Most of these people are not code writers by any stretch of the imagination, but desire to see the functionality on their sites improve. Therefore, they will get people who are technically capable of doing these various technical tasks, and in most cases make then administrators of their sites.

I am one of these people.

The owner of the site I frequent was having a problem with account sharing. He runs a premium site, and charges a fee for membership to the site. Well, it was found out that in some cases, close to 50 users were logging into the same account to reap benefits from the site. The solution? He came here and looked for a hack that would detect account sharing, but found nothing that was really suitable. There was a multiple IP detection hack, but that did not address users with dynamic IP's such as AOL users whose IP change every time they click a new link. Also, many other scenarios came into play which this particular plugin did not address.

Since I am a software engineer, he approached me about the problem, and asked me if I could help. I decided I would help. Therefore, myself, and another software engineer took to the task of developing a product that is very effective at detecting "account sharing". We wanted to be very non evasive to the current vbulletin infrastructure, yet also wanted to use vbulletin's current infrastructure to our advantage. Therefore we developed a plugin that requires no template modifications to perform the required tasks.

I did figure that other vbulletin users could greatly benefit from this plugin that we have developed. We created it with vbulletin's code specifications and suggested standards... making it so that it would be easily editable even for a novice coder.

This plugin will probably never see the light of day in the public arena. Why? Because neither myself nor the other software engineer that developed this software are licensed vbulletin users. I do not run my own forums, therefore I have absolutely no need for my own license. Yet, if I did want to share this software "out of the goodness of my heart", there is no provision for doing so... as I cannot even post in the "modification" section of the forums. Therefore, there is no possible way that I could support a product on your site. (BTW, I would never ask the owner of that site to add me to his email product support list)

What Jelsoft has done, is created a very "closed" community. The majority of the people holding a vbulletin license couldn't code to save their lives (nothing wrong with that). But, many of the talented people who would like to code and share have no need for a vbulletin license because they do not run their own forums. I tell you... it is easier to petition a royal court than it is to get information on vbulletin's code infrastructure and built in functions if you do not hold a vbulletin license. I cannot even see code snippets and examples when I browse this forum. Therefore, I had to export whatever plugins the forum owner already had installed to look at a few examples of vbulletin code, and to see how the hook system worked, and to see how the templates were designed.

Therefore I would like to make a suggestion:

It would be real nice if you would make a provision for anyone to be able to submit code modifications somewhere. If the code modification is decided to be "worthy", then create a status for the "unlicensed coder" to be able to support their products. Also, it would be nice if that "unlicensed coder" could see code snippets on the site. I see no real reason to allow that "unlicensed coder" to be able to download other plugins, as they would have no use for them, except for learning from them... but being able to learn from other code snippets would be very helpful.

This would only benefit your own customers, as they would have access to more forum enhancements, and more products than are already available. Also, you would probably be surprised at how many "good" code submissions you receive. I know many software engineers, and coders (good people, not your "133t H@XoR" type), that like to do things for a hobby. Something like this would be right up their alley.

[Blaine0002]

I understand what you are saying, but the more people that get their hands on vbulletin code without jumping through the hoop of buying a license, the more exploits will be found and abused.

You may say "Hey that will just create more secure code", but, if noone finds out about the exploit, it really isnt a problem.

[Opserty]

The reason you can't see code here if you are not licensed is to make people buy legitimate licenses. If you haven't got a license you can't get proper help (i.e. gain an undestanding of vBulletin's Code). The email support list thing is there for people like you, the owner of the site should have put you on it I don't see why they didn't.

But to be very honest with you pastalover you are unfortunately a very very small minority. You have to compare the amount of people out there who are using vBulletin illegally with those that are like you.

People like your are few and far between.

[5th-Level]

I design skins for vBulletin and when I eventually want to sell my license I want be able to access this site anymore :(

[pastalover]

I appreciate your response Blaine0002. This reminds me of a comic strip that I once seen called "bobby tables" - google it, it is funny. :)

"Obscurity" as a protection, proves to be little or no protection at all. Just look at anything that is hacked. If an exploiter is so inclined, they CAN find information on the desired subject they want to exploit. Just take a look at pay-tv systems, playstations, or even vbulletin itself. "Obscurity" proved to be nothing more than a minor inconvenience. While carousing through google looking for information about vbulletin, I found many things from people you would consider "unfriendly". It was not hard finding every plugin that vbulletin has ever had posted on this site.

Sure, you may get more people that exploit weaknesses, yet you would get more people that could sanitize these vulnerabilities before they ever made it to the public scene. "Obscurity" will not stop someone with the "know how", not if they are obliging enough. Instead, we should be looking at sanitizing every sort of user input, to get rid of these vulnerabilities. And coders themselves should be on the lookout for other coder's code that could pose a potential vunerability... then discuss how to fix it.

What would you rather have? A product with holes in it that a select few can exploit at will, at any given time... things that aren't public? Or the exploits to made public, and fixes to be made? I would choose the latter of these two options.

[Blaine0002]

These few people that are "obliging" enough to find these exploitations and do illegal activities is what jelsofts legal team is for.

seriously though, if you search for phpbb exploits you will find more than vbulletin exploits.


PS good comic :)

[Marco van Herwaarden]

As you are aware we do have procedures to have additional people showing as licensed. If you choose not to ask the license owner to add you to his support list, then this is your decission.

[pastalover]

As you are aware we do have procedures to have additional people showing as licensed. If you choose not to ask the license owner to add you to his support list, then this is your decission.I understand your position, and thank you for considering my suggestion. I will not push the issue further.

Have a merry Christmas everyone! And a happy New Year! :)