3.5 Modification Classification [Archive]

Borgs8472

01-06-2006, 10:26 PM

Other the the roll over in keeping template mods seperate, I must say I prefered the 3.0 version.

It would be okay if 'plugin' and 'extension' made a significant difference in how hard they are to install, but due to the presence of betas, minimalistic hacks and general variance in quality, the installation difficulty isn't well divided between the fora.

Hence I prefer the 3.0 way.

Paul M

01-06-2006, 10:40 PM

I have no doubt the staff will come along soon and tell you that it will all change when they upgrade the site (and install the hacks database) - but this has been "promised" for months now, with no sign of it actually happening.

Tony G

01-07-2006, 02:46 AM

It's going to happen. It's not something that will happen overnight, but it will eventually happen. People involved with the hack database and upgrades also have other commitments and actually have lives (zomg), and we want to make sure everything is perfect before the upgrade - it's a big forum after all. And I thought a hacker like yourself Paul would understand something so simple. But I've lost count how many times you've slammed the staff for not upgrading fast enough... WE'RE SORRY!

Anyway, the hack database will soon change the way the 3.5 mod forums are set out but until then it's staying like this. Some people don't want to install mods that change their source files, so this setup isn't exactly useless.

evenmonkeys

01-07-2006, 06:03 AM

When I get on vBulletin.org, I do not go to the Code Modifications section. I only go to Plug-ins and Extentions. I like the way it's setup.

Paul M

01-07-2006, 03:52 PM

It's going to happen. It's not something that will happen overnight, but it will eventually happen. People involved with the hack database and upgrades also have other commitments and actually have lives (zomg), and we want to make sure everything is perfect before the upgrade - it's a big forum after all. And I thought a hacker like yourself Paul would understand something so simple. But I've lost count how many times you've slammed the staff for not upgrading fast enough... WE'RE SORRY!Tony, I have not "slammed" anyone - I have stated the facts - the same reasons have now been given out time and time again - vb 3.5 has been around for 7 months now. I have also repeated a number of times - if the people involved are so busy then ASK FOR HELP - the forum is full of coders who I'm sure would be more than willing to assist. :)

nexialys

01-07-2006, 04:23 PM

... around and around we go, the wheel is round and goes roung...

someone please stop this spam of asking to upgrade...

(oh, yes, a big red banner on top of the forum stating that the site will be upgraded when people stop whining...)

Edit: to me is just a proof that some admins are not working hard enough to admin their own websites... or please open new forums to take care of...

zylstra

01-07-2006, 09:49 PM

Didn't mean to start anything. I didn't know that an upgrade was in the process. I was just sincerely wondering if the admins of this site thought the current classification was better.

Tony G

01-07-2006, 11:10 PM

Tony, I have not "slammed" anyone - I have stated the facts - the same reasons have now been given out time and time again - vb 3.5 has been around for 7 months now. I have also repeated a number of times - if the people involved are so busy then ASK FOR HELP - the forum is full of coders who I'm sure would be more than willing to assist.

I believe having the coder in charge of the hack database have to explain to other coders what needs to be done, how, and what the end product should be would only delay the project even further. And we're not in any rush either, we knew it would take quite some time for everything to be finished. Anyway, that's not my call.

You stated facts? Give me a break. You honestly think I'd believe all you were doing was stating facts with no personal opinion on the matter?

"promised"

I wonder what those quotation marks are supposed to mean. Sarcasm? Staff are lying? It's not going to happen? ARE THOSE FACTS?

All your post did was imply to me you think we are lying or making up this upgrade. And in anyone's language, that's some sort of derogatory comment towards the staff, and it's one of many, too.

Borgs8472

01-07-2006, 11:27 PM

I wonder what those quotation marks are supposed to mean. Sarcasm? Staff are lying? It's not going to happen? ARE THOSE FACTS?
I think the 'promises' about the hack database coming 'soon' being used as a reason to avoid changes to the hack release forums have been proven to be baseless, unless you really do think every day that the hack database is coming 'soon'.

Paul M

01-07-2006, 11:51 PM

You stated facts? Give me a break ... <snip>Either you are getting paranoid, or have a good imagination, is about all I can really say to that rant. In fact, I did type out a long reply, but I really can't be bothered. If you have a problem with me speaking my mind then you know where the PM feature is.

Tony G

01-08-2006, 08:57 AM

I don't have a problem with you speaking your mind, by all means speak your mind, but when you can't even admit you're speaking your mind and think that when you "speak your mind" you're speaking facts, that's just.. *shakes head*

I think the 'promises' about the hack database coming 'soon' being used as a reason to avoid changes to the hack release forums have been proven to be baseless, unless you really do think every day that the hack database is coming 'soon'.

A hack database is coming soon. Satisfied? We're not lying....

Borgs8472

01-08-2006, 10:07 AM

Marky

01-08-2006, 10:35 AM

I must say I agree on this one, the 'classification' for 3.0 is much easier to use and find the hack you want :)

Rich

01-08-2006, 12:14 PM

Hello,

I myself also liked the 3.0 setup, but I also realize that they have bigger and better things in the works. It's easy for everyone that isn't coding the database to say "hurry up already".

I am a father, a small business owner, and a forum administrator. Which order do you think my life evolves? It certainly isn't around my forum, though I do dedicate a great deal of time to it.

Family is always a priority as is schooling and work. I can understand Paul stating that the staff should ask for help, but the fact remains that too many chefs in the kitchen spoils the soup.

Everyone just needs to relax or: NO SOUP FOR YOU! :P

Daniel

01-08-2006, 08:46 PM

Would be cool if there were two different types of modes to view them in. But if I had to pick, it would be the 3.0 setup.

ericgtr

01-08-2006, 09:41 PM

I am happy enough with the new setup but like the "Old Layout" (search) feature of the 3.0 section that shows all the posts in all the forums. Maybe it can be renamed to something more modern like "View All". For now I just use my own link https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/search.php?do=getdaily&days=1000&f=109 :D

Chris M

01-08-2006, 10:01 PM

Please take "we aren't upgrading fast enough" comments to another thread :)

And I like the current setup for 3.5 better than the 3.0 one :)

Chris

rjordan

01-09-2006, 12:18 AM

Chris, would you entertain ericgtr's suggestion to have the single forum link at the top of 3.5 mods like you have now for 3.0? That may aleviate some hostility here... and honestly I would like to see it too! ;)

peterska2

01-09-2006, 12:20 AM

I actually find the 3.5 setup ok for my needs. It's certainly less confusing when deciding where to release stuff.

Tony G

01-09-2006, 01:14 AM

But since you said that at least 4 months ago, you were lying, or at least very misinformed and as far as I know, continue to be misinformed.

I wouldn't mind except you're using it as a reason not to restructure the release forums into something more helpful.

Did we ever say it was coming in a month or so? I don't think so. We said it was coming soon. And soon could mean a few months. Please be patient.

Regs

01-09-2006, 01:22 AM

How long does it usually take to rename and move a bunch of threads? A day? A week?

I think people take issue because every suggestion given in here is met with the same response, regardless of how much time the suggestion would actually take to implement.

A couple of months on the internet? Are you serious? And weapons of mass destruction will be found in Iraq "soon"...

:D

peterska2

01-09-2006, 01:23 AM

Did we ever say it was coming in a month or so? I don't think so. We said it was coming soon. And soon could mean a few months. Please be patient.

Just to put this into perspective, a company that I worked for 3 years ago have been telling one particular group of their customers that a service would be available in their area soon for the last 5 years or possibly even longer. Therefore, a handful of months is PDQ if you ask me.

(PDQ = Pretty Darn Quick)

Paul M

01-09-2006, 07:30 AM

Borgs8472

01-09-2006, 09:20 AM

Did we ever say it was coming in a month or so? I don't think so. We said it was coming soon. And soon could mean a few months. Please be patient.
Ah, but surely it's implied that the database will come TOO soon for it to be worth considering restructuring the release forums. This is clearly not the case.

Milesian

01-09-2006, 01:11 PM

Just to put this into perspective, a company that I worked for 3 years ago have been telling one particular group of their customers that a service would be available in their area soon for the last 5 years or possibly even longer. Therefore, a handful of months is PDQ if you ask me.

(PDQ = Pretty Darn Quick)

Would that be Cable Teletext?, because I'm still waiting for it! :D

My personal opinion is that the 3.5 set-up isn't that much use.
For instance, I generally prefer to avoid any hacks involving template changes because I can't be arsed having to re-do them after upgrading to a new vBulletin version. So I give the Template Modification forum a miss & go to Plug-ins instead, only to find most of them require template changes anyway. Ditto with Code Modifications, etc.

So in that respect, it isn't very helpful

EricaJoy

01-09-2006, 02:04 PM

I prefer the 3.0 way of classification. If a hack requires a code modification, I'll just not install it and be on my way.

john1744

01-09-2006, 08:22 PM

I prefer 3.0 as well, and I'd just like to point out that vB 4.0 may be out before we get a hack database here. ;)

peterska2

01-09-2006, 09:33 PM

I don't think there is much comparison between a telecommunications company and a forum. ;)

My dear Paul, sorry to disappoint you but you have got your dates out by a couple of months and it isn't the same company is you are thinking of but one that I worked for before them.

Tony G

01-10-2006, 08:49 AM

Ah, but surely it's implied that the database will come TOO soon for it to be worth considering restructuring the release forums. This is clearly not the case.

Well you're wrong. Not everyone thinks the forums are constructed in a way that is wrong. And this thread demonstrates that perfectly. When one person, or ten people, complain on a forum with 100,000 members that something isn't the way they like it, the staff are not going to go change it immediately and grovel at peoples' feet. This has come up before - we are waiting for the hack database and upgrade to be finalised and finished and that's that.

Paul M

01-10-2006, 10:18 AM

While 100,000 may sound nice, the forum only has a few thousand active members, and while most of them will have an opinion, few will bother to post it. :)

Tony G

01-10-2006, 10:53 AM

And? so what? An equal number of people have posted here saying they're fine with the layout we have now. In one simple line too. Just because they don't shout and challenge everyone who disagrees doesn't mean their opinion is any less valued.

Like I said, a few vocal members asking for change won't make it happen. I think it's time you learn things aren't always going to go the way you want them....

Regs

01-10-2006, 01:01 PM

I think it's time you learned that this site doesn't truly have 100,000 members and quit throwing it around as some holy number.

How bad does that sound?

I think it's time you learned... ?!?!?!

Are you going to start chasing members around with a stick now too? Paddle our bums?

:D

nexialys

01-10-2006, 01:03 PM

Are you going to start chasing members around with a stick now too? Paddle our bums?
yes yes, a pogo-stick!!!

peterska2

01-10-2006, 01:04 PM

erm....... they might not all be active but the current site stats are

Threads: 75,038, Posts: 690,826, Members: 111,417

and the most recent member has member number 124703

nexialys

01-10-2006, 01:05 PM

I don't think there is much comparison between a telecommunications company and a forum. ;)
this one is hillarious...

how to broadcast a forum content... via telecommunication...

peterska2

01-10-2006, 01:07 PM

this one is hillarious...

how to broadcast a forum content... via telecommunication...

Good old confusion causes some great quotes really.

nexialys

01-10-2006, 01:10 PM

erm....... they might not all be active but the current site stats are Threads: 75,038, Posts: 690,826, Members: 111,417
and the most recent member has member number 124703
yeah, but like on a porn site, where there is about 50 000 clients, all of them will tell you that it's not them, they are not here, someone stole their credit card and so...

we're not here anyway, you know it, it is completely virtual, we're part of the imagination of someone in needs of power...
(and Brad's beer!)

Regs

01-10-2006, 01:11 PM

What percentage of those numbers are "coders"?

It's simple really, know your membership.

Has any suggestion/feedback been taken w/o a canned "hack database/upgrade" response in the last few months? or "we all have lives"? "soon"?

Where's that stick at...

:D

nexialys

01-10-2006, 01:11 PM

Good old confusion causes some great quotes really.
like an old president said: it's not when someone have his head in the moon that we can give him credit... it's when someone have his feet on the ground that we do!

Where's that stick at...
let me check in the garbages, i have some... wait, a little... ah, come on, give me a hand...

hum... we'll have to wait a little, eat some more pogos...

Chris M

01-10-2006, 01:21 PM

This will be the last time I say it; Take the "when is the hack database coming" comments, snipes, questions and answers out of this thread please...

This thread only requires your comment on the current layout of the current 3.0 and 3.5 forum layouts, nothing else...

Also - Regs, please stop trying to push staff into your arguements by badmouthing or criticising us; It won't help your view of the arguement or you any, and will just make us less inclined to listen to what you and the people on your side have to say, since all we get is mostly abuse and criticism from you...

If you want to start up a "Hack database" thread, by all means, go ahead and do it, but stop polluting this and other threads with that same arguement over and over...

Chris

Regs

01-10-2006, 01:40 PM

The staff is doing quite well pushing themselves into these arguements but whatever.

And Chris M, you brought any "abuse" from me on yourself. I've tried to be helpful in the past and you were an ++++ about it.

Now to the topic at hand... how do you figure that talk of the hack database in this thread is not relevant?!?!?

EricaJoy

01-10-2006, 01:45 PM

Paddle our bums?:D Goodness if that didn't give me the giggles. Way to give me my daily laugh.

Meanwhile, based on the poll, seems 2 out of 3 users like the way the hacks are classified in 3.0. Majority rules?

Chris M

01-10-2006, 01:47 PM

Please don't swear...

Secondly I was talking about the Staff as a whole, since you have attacked other staff members in this thread prior to your outburst against me...

Thirdly, regardless of how you view yourself or me, that may not be my take on the situation, or that of others - As far as I remember and can be bothered to look into, you have been trying to cause arguements and trouble for a while now - I simply asked you to stop, but if you choose to continue in this way it will be your problem in the long run...

I figure that talking about the hack database is irrelevant, because once again, this thread is about the difference in forum layout between 3.5 and 3.0 - We could have set up the 3.5 forums the same way as 3.0 but we didn't - The question here is which way do you prefer; It being categorised into plugins, extensions and code mods, or into the "forumhome enhancements" etc 3.0 system...

Chris

Paul M

01-10-2006, 02:43 PM

And? so what?
Like I said, a few vocal members asking for change won't make it happen. I think it's time you learn things aren't always going to go the way you want them....Well at least we know how valued our views are now ;) I don't actually recall saying it would go my way (whatever "it" is) but despite your OTT rants, I'm not going to stop voicing my views just because you don't like them. :)

Regs

01-10-2006, 02:48 PM

Forum enhancements is a more logical choice as it would seem to make more sense for, what I assume to be, the majority of Jelsoft customers - non-coders. With the search feature here not up to snuff, one needs to do the best they can to make the generous offerings here easy to find.

As for swearing, you've got to be kidding me? If you need to go in and edit my post and not let the forums filter do it's job, then you are being extremely selective, don't you think?

For those at home, the word Chris M decided to take issue with is a-r-s-e.

Veiled threats of banning?!?!? Jesus H Christ!

Chris M

01-10-2006, 02:51 PM

Since not all swear words are blocked out by the incomplete filter, and some people take offence (myself included) to that word, I felt it was appropriate to filter it out manually... It has nothing to do with being selective...

Chris

Regs

01-10-2006, 02:54 PM

You're such a fanny-bottom.

:rolleyes:

Borgs8472

01-10-2006, 03:06 PM

I figure that talking about the hack database is irrelevant, because once again, this thread is about the difference in forum layout between 3.5 and 3.0 - We could have set up the 3.5 forums the same way as 3.0 but we didn't - The question here is which way do you prefer; It being categorised into plugins, extensions and code mods, or into the "forumhome enhancements" etc 3.0 system...

Chris
That would be noble, only:
Anyway, the hack database will soon change the way the 3.5 mod forums are set out but until then it's staying like this. Some people don't want to install mods that change their source files, so this setup isn't exactly useless.
It seems that the structure isn't going to change until the hack database comes. Unless that's not an official statement somehow.

My argument is that the hack database SHOULD be taken out of the equation since it is NOT coming soon. On that basis, 2/3rds of voters so far seem to prefer the 3.0 system.

Paul M

01-10-2006, 03:18 PM

Unless I'm reading it wrong, the actual vote seems to be 24/11 in favour of the 3.0 system. I prefer hacks classified into what they do, rather than how they do it, which is the 3.0 way. :)

nexialys

01-10-2006, 03:48 PM

on my side, i would prefer seeing the site itself updated to 3.5.x, and the hacks database updated later...

the goal of 3.5 was to add flexibility to plug any kind of external source to vb... if that hacks database is the reflect of that feature, why would it be complicated to be installed later?

i know that the vb guys want to upgrade only once, that's why i'm ok with that situation... i'm acting the same way.. my new community is not opened yet because some features are not up-to-date yet... the site will open when i'm ok with everything, that makes it undefinitively closed.. lol

Unless I'm reading it wrong, the actual vote seems to be 24/11 in favour of the 3.0 system. I prefer hacks classified into what they do, rather than how they do it, which is the 3.0 way. :)
i don't think that these votes would make things changes anyway... the poll was not called by the administration, and so have no power on things to be... democratic actions are not made by individuals, but by the entire community.

ericgtr

01-10-2006, 03:58 PM

Another thought here is if the 3.5 section were setup like the 3.0 only you could cassify it when posting the mod. Say they are posting the mod they could have a dropdown that says something like:
Plugin
Extension
Code

Then that would show up like:
[Plugin] modofication name only in the same way it currently is in the 3.0 section.

Just thinking out loud :)

Borgs8472

01-10-2006, 04:13 PM

^ ^
you've touched on some features of the hacks database there.

Corriewf

01-10-2006, 06:56 PM

A point loses some validity when it is made so long after the fact.

Tony G

01-11-2006, 04:19 AM

It seems that the structure isn't going to change until the hack database comes. Unless that's not an official statement somehow.

It's been implied my moderators for quite some time now. But still, the message doesn't get through.

My argument is that the hack database SHOULD be taken out of the equation since it is NOT coming soon. On that basis, 2/3rds of voters so far seem to prefer the 3.0 system.

Quite an assumption you've made there. After all this time, progress on it has actually occured. (zomg)

And this one thread is hardly represents the whole community. Not by far.

Lea Verou

01-11-2006, 05:41 AM

What I like in the 3.5 classification:
-Easier to find hacks that don't modify code
-Easier to find in which forum to release a hack

What I don't like:
-I don't find the separation between Extensions and plugins useful. Both don't modfy files, so what's the difference? FTP access? Is there an admin out there with no FTP access?
-I would like some classification about the purpose of the hack, like in 3.0 modifications, but definately combined with a separation based on whether it has code modifications or not. The best IMHO would be some thing like:
Template Mods
-Template mod Category 1
-Template mod Category 2
-Template mod Category 3
...etc
File modifications
-File modifications Category 1
-File modifications Category 2
-File modifications Category 3
...etc
Hacks w/o file mods
-Hacks w/o file mods Category 1
-Hacks w/o file mods Category 2
-Hacks w/o file mods Category 3
...etc

Chris M

01-11-2006, 08:45 AM

Lea Verou

01-11-2006, 10:11 AM

Just think of how many forums that would take up...

That, plus it means we have to move things, and then get people confused about where to find things and everything else that is associated with changing it...

Honestly, there is no point in changing the forum structure yet - Just rest assured that all will be completed soon ;)

Chris

I didn't imply that the subcategories should be as analytic as in the 3.0 forum. What I'm suggesting is the φ* of both.

*search google for that the number phi ( φ ) means in maths :p , I didn't know the term in english :P Something like the "golden cut"? :confused:

Colin F

01-11-2006, 11:14 AM

I didn't imply that the subcategories should be as analytic as in the 3.0 forum. What I'm suggesting is the φ* of both.

*search google for that the number phi ( φ ) means in maths :p , I didn't know the term in english :P Something like the "golden cut"? :confused:

Golden Ratio :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

Lea Verou

01-11-2006, 11:22 AM

Golden Ratio :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

Oh yes! Correct! :o

nexialys

01-11-2006, 01:14 PM

hahaha!!!
really intopic.. lol...

Brad

01-15-2006, 11:34 AM

Hindsight is always 20/20.

The reason the grouping was changed with the 3.5.x forums was due to the major changes that where going to happen within the community once it was released. From the days of 1.x - 3.0.x the methods we used to hack vBulletin stayed mostly the same, in 3.5.x we were all introduced to plug-ins and the product manager. The forums were laid out so plug-ins and code hacks were separate in an attempt to promote using the plug-in system.

Here we are months later and plug-ins are well understood by most, so I agree that the grouping is now obsolete. But I also think the grouping did help nudge people towards working with the plug-in system, so I don't think it was a failure.

We also get complaints about the grouping used for 2.x/3.0.x modifications, mainly from coders who don't know were they should place their modification (some do apply to multiple forums).

michaelbenson

01-15-2006, 04:12 PM

Personally i agree that with the advent of vBulletin 3.5.X bringing forth the newly christened plugin system rendering file edits and other code modifications archaic that it was probally better to help deviate between the different sorts of modifications avaiable to users to make efficient use of. But i now that the userbase as a whole have become more accustomed with the different variations of modification types it would be probally more purposeful to occupy the same forum layout hierachy as the previous vBulletin version modification forums occupy.

As previously mentioned somewhere in this thread, and the uncoherant, and unneccessary rants it would probally is probally plausible and recommended for a sort of Thread Category (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=99925) system to be adopted within the individual subforum modification categorizations - therefore we are combining the differeniation of the plugin/extention/code modification system with the organisational aspect which the vBulletin 3.0.X provides.

EDIT:

Also, being a member of the InvisionFree free forum host community i can completely resonate with the anguish that perhaps members of this community are feeling with regards to the lack of apparant developments for upgrading vb.org and its hack and database system, in linking with InvisionFree, they where in working on the development of a new forum software system to help incorperate IPB 2.0 into their previously modified IPB 1.3 without encurring any lawsuits due to their policy changes - and what the members of the community often requested was some sort of demo, or perhaps even a screenshot of how the new forum software would look and function. Perhaps this could be applied here? Some sort of demo forum which members could individually make of and help iron bugs of the system which would be of course much more stringent than a small niche selection of vb.org staff working through them.