Proposal: The vBulletin.org Commercial Services and Addons Directory.

[Wayne Luke]

Over time, websites evolve to serve their members. Lately there has been a lot of heated discussion about commercial hacks and addons for vBulletin and this site. Currently they are not allowed in the forums but a good portion of the membership would like to see them here according to recent polls. What I would like to propose is an equitable solution that hopefully addresses the major issues.

Several solutions have been proposed from new sites, commercial forums, advertising on different pages and a directory. After discussion with the Jelsoft Staff, we have decided that a Directory is probably the best course of action. This satisfies two things. First, the forums on this site will be reserved for free and colloborative development. Second, the directory will be self-contained within vBulletin.org and use its permission system as well as the vBulletin Licensing system. This means we can deny complete access to non-licensed members and those advertisers would be known vBulletin users.

The Directory will allow people to advertise their commercial add-ons and hacks to the tens of thousands of vBulletin customers. It will give those same customers a centralized location to find these resources. In addition, links can be purchased by style designers, webmasters, and other service providers so people can have easy access to the resources they need for the best community sites on the Internet.

This will be a main section of the site and any customer will be able to participate. The links will be purchased for a moderate fee but that has not been determined yet. The directory will be moderated by myself and vBulletin.org staff and there will be guidelines for submission. I also want to institute ways for people to get links in the directory through community involvement on this site. Things that would allow this would be free of charge addon releases and template/style modifications released.

This however is not going to be implemented roughshod over the community. We want your feedback. We want to make a solution that everyone can live with and support as part of the community. In order to do that, I want to hear your concerns and comments. For that purpose I open this up for townhall discussion. In this discussion, you will be able to address the proposal directly according to the following rules:

Proposal Discussion Rules:



You may post one reply to address the proposal. If I update the proposal or post within the thread, then the count starts over.
You may not address other community members at this time. Keep it on topic and directed to the proposal.
Any multiple posts will be deleted.
You are to remain civil at all times.
There will be no deviation from these rules.
Let me hear your comments.. Make sure they are thought out and clear, you only get one chance at this. This thread will remain open until January 1st, 2006. That gives you about 3 weeks to make your comments.

[TruthElixirX]

I'm glad the staff is doing something official and listening to us.

As for me I'm for it. This will not discourage free hacks as many people just starting out will release hacks for free. Also since the hacks are paid for you wil lbe getting priority support or the hack won't survive. Overall the end user wins. We'll see paid modificatins get better so they can survive sicne people are now more aware of other paid scripts.

People who do this for a hobby will still do it for free s othey aren't bound by legialities and such when they don't feel like helping.

There, first post sicne everyone seems to be scared to break the ice. And yes I sort of wrote this from the perspective that it is now in effect, however, I know it is not.

EDIT:: @Wayne, for clarity, I see you have edited your post since I posted (though I have nothing else to add. Just speaking hypothetically) am I allowed to post again?

EDIT 2:: Ignore first edit, I misread the times. But anyways, I suppose an official answer should stil lbe given to keep it fro mgetting used in the future for either side, though I'm pretty sure the common sense answer will be "no, it does not count".

[Corriewf]

I think it sounds really great BUT.

I would advise you all run this by your lawyers if you have not already. The fact that revenue will be made off these listings may cause a liability on the end of Jelsoft for the content of those listings. Although I would personally never hold anyone here responsible for any damage caused by an outside vendor found in your listings, this world has people in it that would.:( Nothing wrong with playing it safe.

Who would of thought someone would need to be warned that Mcdonald's coffee is served hot..... :ermm:

With that said I cant wait to see this implemented. I know there has to be some mods out there I dont know about that I could use.:)

Thanks!

[Keyser S?ze]

i agree with what this guy said, you would have a problem if say, a hack came out for $30 bucks for v 3.5.2

everythings fine til 3.5.4 when the hack stops working and the creator has left the building you know, i mean people leave, people die, people just whatever

once you sart dealing with money, and these are not donations, these are cash on the barel for product, you have a responsibility i doubt you want to have

specially since jelsoft isnt the one being paid

---------

i think donations are better, cuz you are not buying the product you are just making a donation to the cause, also what realy happens to any good hack sbeing made, they will all become retail, yes some newer hack-makers will release free, but the good ones will most likly all go retail

[Reeve of shinra]

I think that the proposal seems fair and seems to address many of the key points I've read during various discussions on the topic.

Now on a seperate but somewhat related topic, I remember reading about a new "hack repository" being introduced here on vb.org to help organize the many hacks and styles that have been released here. Can you elaborate on how this might tie into the above "link directory"?

While I am not sure how the directory will work, I know that I as a consumer would like the option of seeing whats available both for free and commerically (or either or given a users specific preference).

[Floris]

About the liability.

One could imagine that besides a set of rules for submission, there will also be a set of rules for participation/download. vBulletin.org is a directory, listing the resources in exchange for a fee. If you use a resource this is not in relation to the web site at all. The author is responsible for his resource and I think people can agree upon the recommendation to always make a backup prior to making changes to their community. And are open to accept that vBulletin.org can not be held responsible for any damage to or data loss off ..

If I find through Google, and download a word document that has a macro virus in it, and my system gets screwed up, surely I can't hold Google responsible.

Anyway, I think we can assume there will be a paragraph stating that we're only responsible for displaying the links. And how we will handle disputes.

I can imagine the reviewers of the links will have the rights to modify, move or delete any links at any time for any reason. As they're the owners of the site. This to protect vBulletin.org in case of disputes, or if we find out someone posted resources that cause damage (like a hack backdoor).

(Am I making any sense here? haha) (back to my coffee)

[Lizard King]

This is great news actually. Till i saw the first discussion i wanted something like this to happen because as a customer i would like to see all paid additions on one site. This may help us to choose which hack to purchase or not. I just ask couple suggestions.
If there will be a link directory then ,
* Members may be able to rate the scripts.
* Members may be able to reply to scripts threads about their opinions.
* No support post shall be allowed within the threads.
* In order to purchase a link from directory the coder must release some number of free hacks to vb.org . It might be any version for vbulletin but the main point is the coder actually helped vb.org previously.

[Daniel]

Don't like the idea...

Intead of releasing hacks to the public that are free, they will turn into ones that you have to purchase.

[Princeton]

First, I want to thank you for keeping us within the "loop". I'm just speaking for myself but it makes me feel more of an "insider" than an "outsider". (I hope this continues.)

Second, I think you made the best choice. I always said a DIRECTORY would be the best solution.



It will increase traffic especially if the section is SEO.
Will increase sales
Will increase membership
Will increase participation
Will increase free available addons

It decreases liability.
Less man-power vs. the other mentioned solutions
It offers MORE to all vBulletin owners.
Regarding Submissions



Allow submission of logo - great for branding (ADVERTISEMENT)
Payments should be on an annual basis.
Ensures dead businesses are removed
Increases revenue

Offer per link (ala kart) and membership (no limit on links)
Price wise - it should be high enough so that it discourages submissions from EVERYONE; but, low enough to be competitive.
It would be great if customers could sort links via (state/country) ... eg. used as a risk factor (some people would rather do business within a specific area)
Allow dynamic urls for tracking purpose
Display POPULAR/HOT based on hits
Display a RATING - based on a 1-5 stars rating
Do NOT allow commenting - that could get ugly; and, it may require man-power

With that said..

Free addons will never decline..



A good business person will continue adding free addons

It's the best way to advertise a business.
It's the best way to create good karma.
It's the best way to build a reputation.

Businesses come and go..
The business environment is very competitive. At any time, a business could close down ... no one can control the success of a business.



It's the customer's responsibilities to "shop" for the best business.


Create a usable interface...

Get feedback from a handful of people to ensure it's success. PLEASE PLEASE ... DO NOT HAVE ONLY STAFF/CODERS REVIEWING THE INTERFACE.

[Wayne Luke]

Clarify some things here:

1) There is no liability. We will not be hosting these commercial addons on this site. The links will be links to the Author's webpage. There is no more liability for a dead link than there is for Google or Yahoo having dead links in their directory.

2) Fees will be available on a monthly and yearly basis. The exact fees haven't been determined yet. All income earned will go to benefit this site, either for additional software needed over the long term or to support the staff.

3) There is no proof that commercial software will eliminate free of charge addons. In fact software markets suggest the exact opposite is happening in the world. Commercial Offerings are becoming scarcer as companies merge or drop products while free of charge software is becoming more prevalent. This is not a trend but something that can be traced over the last 20 years. There is a place for both, even addons in both commercial and free of charge that do the same thing by different authors. Look at phpBB. It is successful and was originally released after vBulletin. Not to mention other free forum systems out there.

And this resets the comments.

[sabret00the]

You mention the license system? does this mean that only registered members will be able to see?

Ok my opinion on addition to the directory should be a level of community involvement, i.e they must be a regular poster and must have released at least one hack for three for the current vBulletin version. i like your idea about discounts for more active hackers, that could perhaps be reduced if they're a master coder or something.

all in all it's great news, thank you :)

what wouldn't have been a bad idea thinking about it would've been to run the directory on a third party site and add that to the links at the bottom of the forum index and depending on how much traffic that directory got, integrate it here.

[KW802]

Good to see this thread! As soon as the rates are listed I'll be putting it into the advertisting budget. ;)

The only suggestion I would have is to *not* do a rating type system. If one is done what will happen is that it'll turn into a mess with people trashing products they don't like (because they prefer something else) or even competitors trying to make their competition look bad. Taking a cue from Microsoft & other companies that list 3rd party vendors they simply provide a listing and let the customers decide on their own.

[noppid]

Why would someone pay to be in a closed directory that only vBulletin owners can see and on a resource that not all vBulletin users access?

Why would the directory be closed? Does Jelsoft not think that quality add-ons could increase sales? But if the add-ons are secret, how would perspective customers know of the things they can do to enhance their vB forums?

This is the most rediculous attempt to take advertising money I've ever heard.

BTW, What's in it for those of us that release and fix hacks at or above the rate of some moderators? I'm not knocking moderators, I'm bringing up the so called rewards that come with being an active helpful member. I've heard them mentioned many many times, but have not seen this reward. Am I supposed to have a good feeling in my belly or something?

[The Geek]

Fantastic to see this thread and its contents. The proposal so far seems very logical, fair and balanced.

I would prefer some type of rating system, however I easily concede that unless thought through it could be possibly twisted. However Ratings help one to get an insight into whether the product is well supported, decent value, etc... and can be used as a very constructive tool for customers. That said, I do agree that comments can get messy and ugly.

I think the directory would be best categorized by functionality. Each author can submit where applicable. A log would be good, product name, description and a link, however if the person viewing is not a licensed vB user, redirect them to a permission denied page.

I also think that having the author be able to update the version number a last updated information could be useful (could be really useful to keep a browsable history of this information). Not a big deal - just thinking aloud :)

I hope that custom programmers and style makers will also contribute to the directory, thereby making it an easy resource for customers to find the people they are after.

[joeychgo]

Not sure I like the fee part.

Personally - and I know this wont be popular with some of you, but i think there should be a free 'lite' version of the software before being allowed to advertise it.

-or-

Make it free for everyone to post a vB related product or service -

What about the little guy who just makes a few skins? I dont know what you plan to charge but maybe they cant afford it. They wold be closed out of the loop entirely.

Where do lines get drawn? What about signatures? Would The Geek not be allowed to advertise in his sig? or only if he bought an ad? What if he's advertising his vB forum, which is only for pupose of support of his product? If he is allowed to have his ad in his sig, then why buy the ad?

Would this be only for vB hacks? What about a hack that doesnt require vb to operate such as photopost (before they got vbgallery) - What about custom coders? would they have to pay to advertise too? If they're allowed, what about people offering to install vb for less then jelsoft charges?

Seems to me there are ALOT of questions.

Why not JUST do this --

Leave things as they are - except - make a forum where anyone can post anything about a vb related product or service they're offering. Just like the regular hacks. One thread per product / service. List in the description of the forum that vB and vB.org do not endorse anything listed there, and then call it a day.

I dont sell anything, so This doesnt really apply to me. Just pointing out a few thoughts.....

.

[Paul M]

I don't like the idea of paid hacks on vb.org itself so this does seem a reasonable compromise. However, I don't understand why only licenced members will be able to view it (unless i've misunderstood) - surely you want potential buyers to see what is on offer ?


This section bothers me ;

All income earned will go to benefit this site, either for additional software needed over the long term or to support the staff. What exactly does that last bit mean - that you are going to share the "profits" out to the vb.org staff ? If so then this completely removes my support for this proposal. Firstly, the same staff will be moderating the links, and so will have a persoanl gain bias to decisions, and secondly I do not believe that the staff (who are supposed to be volunteers) should be making personal profit from this site when the rest of us, who still release free hacks for all, get no benefit.

[nighteyes]

I think it's a really bad idea. vBulletin.org should continue to encourage community development projects, add-ons and innovations for the software free-of-charge. The short-term gains you make from charging software developers for the right to list paid-for add-ons and projects could be wiped out if suddenly all the 'good stuff' is shut out and requires extra payments. Suddenly subsequent versions of vBulletin become less attractive when there's a heap of hacks and add-ons that each require additional sums of money to be installed and properly licensed.

It's human nature for people to want to cash in on their ideas and work. And I certainly couldn't blame anyone for wanting to get paid for their efforts - but if they choose to go down that route, it should be done outside of vbulletin.org IMHO. The moment you start giving people the means to use this medium to sell their work you create an irresistable marketplace for many that will stifle the really good thing you have going on..... the community spirit that many of Jelsoft's rivals would love to have backing their own products.

Why risk breaking something that has worked so incredibly well for a number of years?

[JayJay]

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to voice our opinions.

I believe that it would be a shame to see vBulletin.org heading towards supporting commercial modifications in such a way. I can forsee many people placing charges on their free modifications. I see that you disagree with this, but ask why they do code for free here. One of those reasons is due to the fact that it is hard to gain a good reputation/profile on the WWW without making your name and skills known elsewhere.

I do think, however, that coders should be fairly rewarded for their input. I, as do many, appreciate their time and efforts that go in to making the modifications that we all use. I think that the best way to do this is through unenforced donations.

Maybe the best way to go would be to encourage people to donate to the current coders here, rather than drawing in commercial enterprises and the likes. Support those who are part of the community here, and not those that are just interested in making money.

[Corriewf]

Clarify some things here:

1) There is no liability. We will not be hosting these commercial addons on this site. The links will be links to the Author's webpage. There is no more liability for a dead link than there is for Google or Yahoo having dead links in their directory.

2) Fees will be available on a monthly and yearly basis. The exact fees haven't been determined yet. All income earned will go to benefit this site, either for additional software needed over the long term or to support the staff.

3) There is no proof that commercial software will eliminate free of charge addons. In fact software markets suggest the exact opposite is happening in the world. Commercial Offerings are becoming scarcer as companies merge or drop products while free of charge software is becoming more prevalent. This is not a trend but something that can be traced over the last 20 years. There is a place for both, even addons in both commercial and free of charge that do the same thing by different authors. Look at phpBB. It is successful and was originally released after vBulletin. Not to mention other free forum systems out there.

And this resets the comments.
Thank you for resetting as I was wanting to reply :).

I think its a good idea to charge as that will make sure those listing are kept up to date by the authors. Who would pay to have a dead link listed. Good idea!

The only reason I said anything is that I like this site and dont want anything to happen to it because of something stupid.

The problem with the google analogy is that its a little off. Now lets say that you paid google some money for google earth software. Then you went to google's site and they had a listing of really cool add ons that you could buy. So you decide to buy an add on and something goes wrong. Now things go wrong all the time and normally its because instructions are not followed correctly. Anyway, you buy this add on for your google software and it totally crashs the software you bought from google. No matter what you do, you cant get the software from google to work anymore and their tech support just refers you to the owner of the add on. Well I can tell you that someone somewhere is gonna consult a lawyer about the software they paid and normally when someone decides to sue they go after all parties involved. Being that there are people that are making money off their sites using this software even increases this possibility.

Now the situation here is a little different as this is considered a third party site from Jelsoft, HOWEVER, this directory listing system is being implemented at least in principal by Vbulletin employees. That makes the above more applicable.

If you all get together with your lawyer(s) and just make sure that the warning given to the user previous to use is ironclad then I dont see there being any problems of liability. That is exactly what I would do. :) I keep a lawyer on staff just for ths kind of stuff. ;)

[Logikos]

All income earned will go to benefit this site, either for additional software needed over the long term or to support the staff.

I love this offer and would be apart of it as soon as it was avaiable, but I don't agree that the staff here should profit off of it.

I agree with everything Princeton has to say, and also agree with everything Peterska2 has to say later in this thread. I believe the best solution would be to open a new domain with a new staff, dedicated members that are here on vB.org, or vB.com that help out more often then others.

That way you have two different atmosphere in the air; One for free hack modifications and another for paid modifications. This should also keep things much more orginized. Give the users who will pay for this service the oppurntunity to link there website for there modifacation, also a link that will point to a specific thread at the offical domain that will host this directory. When they submit the ad, it could auto start a specific threadid. Just some quick thoughts that I wanted to share. I hope my suggestions are not overlooked as well as everyone else who has posted in this thread.

[GamerzWorld]

Although im only allowed one post ill try and keep it short and sweet. Its great that you guys are moving forward with your thinking. Keeping the community upto date with all resources on one site is great to see and keeps me in love with vbulletin and its addons. However i dont understand the idea of charging a uneeded fee; yes a fee to cover costs of the server but just because there profiting i dont think its fair or noble to benefit yourselfs which will only lead to increased prices by the hack authors.

[Lea Verou]

I completely agree with the proposal :)

[darnoldy]

we have decided that a Directory is probably the best course of action. ... The links will be purchased for a moderate fee...First, I am a vB user and will in all probability never be a developer/coder--so that's my POV.


I am in favor paid modifications being listed here
I hope that these modifications will be listed in a way that integrates with the much-anticipated "hack database" so that a search here returns both free and paid entries
I have no problem with the staff here getting some of the proceeds--which I know from experience will amount to no more than beer money--from any paid listing. They put in many hours of work with little compensation.
a listing method that allowed for user feedback (such as "this modification work great, but it is fussy to install." or "this feature does not work as well as one would expect") would be most useful to me, and I fear if listings are paid, this would be precluded.
I know user feedback can be abused, but I feel it would be better to deal with the abuse when/if it happens than to not have the mechanism

[jlaine]

So long as you keep these advertisers from inundating the main forums and turning what is supposed to be a community into a shopping mall...

The line is crossed/redrawn/fuzzy as it is, commercialization of this place would really dishearten me.

Keep their paid services in a separate section where if a user wants to seek out a paid service - they have the area to look for one... But don't allow the tripe find its way into the regular forums by letting it become a free for all once a hack author pays for the advertising rights. We've already seen the results of that, it never ends up working out to the advantage of anyone.

[tamarian]

I still prefer a separate site, linked to from vb.org, just like you do with these sites:
vBulletin Network
vBulletin.com - Official Support Forums, Official Support Site for unhacked vBulletin Boards
vBulletin-Germany.com, Official Support Site for unhacked german vBulletin Boards
vBHacks-Germany.com, Official Support Site for Hacked German vBulletin Boards

Just add vbservices.com to the list, and end of story. All vb.org members will see it on the main forum home, and no longer need to search.

Having paid hacks on the same site as free hacks will add a lot of crap and flame wars, and just add a lot of bad blood, as proven from recent incidents. Yes, there some great commercial hack authors who play by the rules (like the Geek), but the record isn't that good with most, and they do cause a bad stink here.

But, if you guys go ahead with this, you'll probably want to do a lot of fine print on the details. Example: since many of the paid hack authors claim that you get what you paid for, and their stuff is superior, while free hacks are crap, then free hacks authors should have the option of turning their hacks into paid hacks, and see if they get members willing to pay for them than the commercial ones. Chances are they'll out-sell commercial hacks.

[AWS]

I like the directory idea. Probably the best solution.
One thing I don't like about the proposal is paying for a link. While this will more than likely entice me to release mods I wouldn't release for free because of the time it would take to support them for free I wouldn't pay to have a link to them. I don't think Jelsoft should profit from the mod authors work.
If you do go to a pay system to list mods then I have a couple questions.
How long will the link be for? Life of the mod? Until the author stops supporting it?
What will be the criteria for which link is listed first if there are 2 or more similiar mods?

I don't think adding another site into the mix is a good idea. We all know how it turned out with vbulletintemplates.com.

[Valter]

I wouldn't change anything.

Everything is perfect and people love this.

[Andrew]

I think that perhaps instead of having a directory with links to individual mods you should have a directory of providers. AWS brought up a good point about the problem of their being multiple similar mods. If you just have a listing of providers you would avoid that issue and I guess in a sense even the playing field. Other than that I like the entire idea - Paying to be listed is definately a necessity to keep the uncommited from trying to make a quick buck and it also will cover the additional bandwidth used to host the directory.

[Neutral Singh]

I am liking this proposal a lot. I would love to see hotscripts.com look alike directory solely dedicated to vbulletin on vb.org. Best of Luck. :)

[soniceffect]

read it a couple of times and really don`t get this


This will be a main section of the site and any customer will be able to participate.

Is this saying that the paid section will be the main section??? That I don`t agree with, however I may have just read it in the wrong way.

I do, in part agree with the principle behind this, in the respect of people being able to see from one area what is available, however I would rather see what was suggested above and see a seperate site form for this purpose. VBservices I believe was the example given ...... It just adds another link to the kinda VBring ya have going already with vbulletin.com, .org, and germany. Bringing it to this site in my eyes will only take away what in my eyes is what Vbulletin.org is all about, and that is the contributing community developer. I do not code in php however do a lot of visual basic and sql, so know the hours that can be put into coding, and I would like to code for the community (once I have learnt enough), not only to give back what I have got out of VB.org, but to continue the community spirit in which I enjoy on here.

[peterska2]

My views and assessment of the commercial products directory.

I have taken each paragraph and addressed it in turn so it is rather long I'm afraid. I hope that you find it informative.

All quotes are Wayne Luke.

Several solutions have been proposed from new sites, commercial forums, advertising on different pages and a directory. After discussion with the Jelsoft Staff, we have decided that a Directory is probably the best course of action. This satisfies two things. First, the forums on this site will be reserved for free and colloborative development. Second, the directory will be self-contained within vBulletin.org and use its permission system as well as the vBulletin Licensing system. This means we can deny complete access to non-licensed members and those advertisers would be known vBulletin users.





While a directory is a good idea in principal, I don't believe the right place for it is here at vB.org as I feel that it will take away from the environment of generosity that has become a central part of vB.org. By this I mean that a lot of the more talented coders will gradually move to paid releases only. This will then leave the average user with either nothing to install, or just things of poor quality done by the more mediocre coders. I actually include myself in that catagory as I know that I will probably never be able to release the major mods that could go as paid for releases.
How exactly would the licencing system be used with regards to this? If it is to be used like the current system where any Tom, Steve or Harry can view the releases but not access the downloads or attachements nor post in that section, then this could possibly be a tool for encouraging people to purchase vBulletin because of the range of modifications available. However, if all access is denied to non-licenced users then how will potential customers be able to find out what is available? If you link the possibility of the free releases declining steadily in number with the complete lockout of the paid for modifications for non-licenced users, then this will equal going to a rival software as it will appear that vBulletin modifications are few in number and of potentially poor quality.
As someone who was happily running a free forums software for a while before coming to vB, I must point out that one of the reasons that I came to vB was the flexability of the software and the ability to easily modify it using the wide range of mods available which I viewed repeatedly before deciding to make my purchase. Had this not been the case, then I would probably have stuck with the rival software as it did the job and has modifications available for it, even though they are more difficult to implement. For low traffic sites like mine, paid for software is a luxary that we can't really afford and so potentially going to a majority of paid for modifications will just mean that I either have to revert to a stock version or go elsewhere for my software needs as I will simply be priced out of the market.
The Directory will allow people to advertise their commercial add-ons and hacks to the tens of thousands of vBulletin customers. It will give those same customers a centralized location to find these resources. In addition, links can be purchased by style designers, webmasters, and other service providers so people can have easy access to the resources they need for the best community sites on the Internet.


Yes, I agree that it will make it easier to find the paid releases as they will all be in one place, but how many vBulletin users actually come to vB.org? Probably less than 25% on a regular basis (working on one visit every 6 months being regular). Would a link to the directory be placed on vB.com? Probably not, as that would make it look like these commercial releases are supported by Jelsoft.
links can be purchased by style designers, webmasters, and other service providers. This reads as though Tom, Steve or Harry could purchase a link to point to anything. It could be used to link to somewhere where they say "Webmaster available for hire. For more details contact Harry via email at harry@tomsteveandharry.com (harry@tom++++andharry.com)" Yes this isn't what you mean, but on paragraph by paragraph analysis this is how it reads. And what sort of things would come under "other service providers"? That could be anything from the sublime to the ridiculous (I had a couple of examples but decided not to use them due to the U rating of the site).
This will be a main section of the site and any customer will be able to participate. The links will be purchased for a moderate fee but that has not been determined yet. The directory will be moderated by myself and vBulletin.org staff and there will be guidelines for submission. I also want to institute ways for people to get links in the directory through community involvement on this site. Things that would allow this would be free of charge addon releases and template/style modifications released.

Surely it should be a minor section of the site and not a main one? Making it a main section will potentially take the emphasis away from the free releases and helpful community that we have here and instead place this all on the commercial products and services.
Purchasing the links is a sensible idea. However, will this then mean that to have a link in your signature, a homepage URL, or post your link as a live demo of a modification you have to purchase this right? Or do you just have to purchase it to go into the directory? If you have purchased a link for in the directory, does this then mean that you can put your commercial link in your signature or elsewhere on the site?
Regarding the moderation of the directory, there is the potential for staff members to misuse this facilty and deny applications from people who they personally dislike, or apply some sort of discount to those who they do like. I'm not saying that any of the current staff members would do this, only that there is the potential for abuse of the system.
With the guidelines for submission, would they cover the little things like demos must be available, as well as the major things like this must be supported with a response time of less than 24 hours while the link is active in the directory? The last thing that Jelsoft and vB.org need is a directory of unsupported commercial products as this will potentially lead to a lot of negative postings here at vB.org as well as potentially at vB.com. This in turn could potentially drive away potential customers of the vBulletin software.
To get a FOC link I'm assuming that someone with little or no coding experience could potentially just rumble up a couple of totally useless releases and then because they have released something could potentially then be able to use the directory to increase their traffic. What about if there is a condition placed on getting a FOC link of having x posts at vB.org and vB.com? Potentially this could lead to a lot of spamming of both sites. You would be amazed just how many posts you can run up just by going through every single release and saying 'nice work' or 'don't think I'll use this one'. Does anyone really want to run the risk of the site be potentially over run by short-term spammers who just want to get a FOC link in the directory?
There is no liability. We will not be hosting these commercial addons on this site. The links will be links to the Author's webpage. There is no more liability for a dead link than there is for Google or Yahoo having dead links in their directory.

However, who do you sue if you purchase a kettle from your supermarket and the water leaks and scolds you? Do you sue the manufactor for making a defective product? Or do you sue the retailer for allowing a defective product to be sold? Probably both. Sufficient legal advice must be sought before embarking on this as there will always be the disgruntaled customer who will come back at Jelsoft for allowing a defective product to be sold through their site. What would happen in the instance of a commercial product being purchased and installed and causing a problem with the vBulletin software, which when support is sought for that product is not forthcoming even after countless emails and pleas for help in their support forums? Will Jelsoft entertain this customer and repair their boards and remove the modification? Or will the customer be referred back to the commercial product support system?
Not hosting the products here does not relieve Jelsoft of all liability. That is a bit like saying that the Bank of England will not assist you with the replacement of outdated currency to new currency because you got the currency from another source. Or what about your company being a day late with your wages so your direct debits do not be paid from your bank account? Who would be liable for that? Yes, your company. Not you, nor your bank, nor the company who the payment was to. There are so many possibilities for legal disaster here that I strongly recommend legal advice being sought from a solictor who has experience in dealing with international online trade.
Fees will be available on a monthly and yearly basis. The exact fees haven't been determined yet. All income earned will go to benefit this site, either for additional software needed over the long term or to support the staff.

Sopporting the staff through payments of fees from a directory that they moderate the submissions to is again a potential for disaster. Potentially the staff could decline all FOC requests and only approve the ones that incur fees as the FOC ones do not line their pockets. As vB.org staff are voluntary then any renumeration will affect this voluntary status making them employees. As an employee there is then tax status to be taken into account and it could significantly affect peoples finances. In the UK an increase in earnings of just ?1.00 can reduce the amount of tax credits recieved by someone on a low income by hundreds of Pounds. In addition to this, any staff that are on any form of benefit (we don't know their personal situations so there potentially could be) will then have to decide whether to continue working at vB.org and losing their benefit (as most of them are means tested based on income), or resigning from vB.org and remaining on their benefit. The penalties for messing about with this are high and can lead to imprisonment.
Using the fees to support the site in terms of hosting costs, domain name renewal, etc, would be a more sensible way of doing this. This would also potentially prevent any misuse of the directory submissions as the money would not be going to the staff. We all know that Jelsoft are perfectly capable of maintaining the hosting and domain etc anyway so there would be no pressure on the staff to reject FOC submissions due to the renumeration recieved.
There is no proof that commercial software will eliminate free of charge addons. In fact software markets suggest the exact opposite is happening in the world. Commercial Offerings are becoming scarcer as companies merge or drop products while free of charge software is becoming more prevalent. This is not a trend but something that can be traced over the last 20 years. There is a place for both, even addons in both commercial and free of charge that do the same thing by different authors. Look at phpBB. It is successful and was originally released after vBulletin. Not to mention other free forum systems out there.

Yes phpBB is free. However, do you remember the outcry last year when IPB went from free to paid? There is the potential for a similar thing to happen here. There will be people who say "$160 for vBulletin then to modify it the way I want it I'm gonna need another $500 to purchase the modifications! I'll go to phpBB. They're free and have free modifications." How many free quality programmes do you see for Windows software? Do you really think you could get something equivalent to MS Word for free? No. The same could potentially happen here. If something good is developed then the first thing that the coder will say before releasing is "Can I make any money from this?" If they think 'yes' then it will be a paid release. As it stands a number of the top quality releases are already paid for. Have you tried to get a decent photo gallery to work with 3.5.x? If you have you will know that the free releases here don't even come remotely close to the quality of the commercial releases.
In conclusion, I personally don't think that the commercial directory is in the best interests of the site. However, I have taken each paragraph of Wayne's posts and looked at them in detail and objectively. I have also looked for any potential risks and problems and highlighted them accordingly.

You will notice that I have use the word 'potential' a lot, but that is because nothing is certain and things may or may not pan out in the way that I have described. There are risks involved as there are with every new venture and so I decided that the best way forward would be to highlight these risks as well as putting forward my own personal point of view and illustrations.

Yes, this has been an extremely long post, but I believe that as this discussion is unfolding it is better to be thorough than to be a bit blase about it and just say a couple of words. Detail says a lot more than an 'I agree' or 'No, not a good idea' in my opinion.

I thank you for taking the time to read this.

Kerry-Anne

[fyjpm]

A commerical add-ons directory is an excellent idea. I think your 2 best options are:

1.) Implement your proposal just like you have it.

OR

2.) creating a separate domain name for the directory as was suggested by a few ppl. a domain name really wouldn't make a difference, you will still just click the link that says "Commercial Addons Directory" or what have you. Placement of the link to the directory is totally up to you.

Personally, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me if it was within vbulletin.org or outside it.

As for legality, liability, and what you do with the proceeds - that is up to you and God bless America! I know I wouldn't be losing any sleep over business liability for listing links on a website, nor would I even waste a phone call to my lawyer.

Best Regards & fortune to you.

[Blam Forumz]

I think it is an absoultely brilliant idea, and it should go full steam ahead

[akanevsky]

Yes, this is definitely a good idea. I agree with everything princeton said.

EDIT: I do not agree with the post below mine. IMHO, hacks should all be in one place. That way it's easier for everyone. It should be a separate area within the site though.

[FASherman]

I think any proposal has to include a feedback mechanism. If I purchase an add-on and its great stuff, I should be able to say so. If it is "not so great", other users should be warned. It has to be more than a pay-for-listing link farm.

[friendly]

This sounds like a brilliant idea!. As a non programmer, when I visit this board, I'm usually on a specific mission. I sincerely appreciate every coder who takes time out of their lives to create free mods or addons that enhance my website. However, I'd rather pay for services or mods than not have access to them at all.

Free coders can keep doing what they do while others who prefer to charge for their services be allowed to do so without being viewed as turncoats or capitalist monsters.

After squandering money on scripts which just aren't up to par with VBulletin and mods found on this site, I've come to the realization that developing around the VB framework is the best way to go.

I'm for social consciousness and all that, but everyone should be entitled to earn a living as long as there's no fleecing going on.

I do agree that a system like Hotscripts would be good to use..

Just my thoughts....

[yessir]

I think "support the staff" is being misunderstood.

I read it to mean funds put towards software for the long term or used to support the staff.

I'm not seeing a cash grab here.

Proposal looks good, but others look good as well. This one will work if the membership shows maturity dealing with paid/free issues. I've seen this on other boards and it comes down to individuals acting responsibly and hack authors being accountable with their support and development.

[DataAve]

There is just something missing here and does not sound right.

[Viks]

I want access to Mods for vbulletin... commercial or otherwise... I need to know what is out there. I support vb.org's decision to allow a directory of commercial mods...anything else that would inform me of the hacks that are out there, available for vB users.

Thanks

[sitka]

well, personally I just don't understand. let them advertise their services. please do not distract from the free hacks/styles/plugins, etc. many sites have paid advertisers showing off their services. target them in the appropriate section and leave it to that.

[Sculli]

I am not in favor of adding commercial 3rd party software to this site, be it as directory or otherwise. Granted, I am new at vb.org, but for the sake of the community spirit that seems to have been developed and cultivated here over the years I hope that there will be no commercial hacks on this site.

Developers of commercial hacks are free to post free-of-charge lite versions of their products here. I doubt there is any better "free" advertising for them than to post a lite version. If their product is good, the community will surely support their development by purchasing the full commercial version as needed.

I can see the need for a central directory for vB hacks. My suggestion would be to take it offsite using a new domain name.

I understand that there are members who want commercial products on here, but I can also imagine that many valuable members will be driven away from vB.org by a decision to commercialize this forum (even if it is "just" a directory).

[Cap'n Steve]

I think this is a great idea. No one comes here because of some "community spirit", they come here to get and discuss vBulletin addons. How can vb.org be the definitive site for vBulletin modifications if it completely ignores commercial hacks?

Although I like the idea, I'm a little wary of the fees. As far as I'm concerned, a portion of the $320 of mine that Jelsoft already has should be enough of a contribution from me to support this site. There absolutely needs to be some sort of rating system, too. Maybe force users to write a review instead of just choosing a rating and have the reviews be moderated, if necessary.

As a side note, why would anyone think a lawyer's opinion is needed here? Here's the disclaimer for you, free of charge: "Clicking a link in this section will lead to a website not affiliated with Jelsoft or vBulletin. Jelsoft is not responsible for any content that may be there."

EDIT: How did this thread get 1 install? :ninja:

[sub_ubi]

A complete directory of paid hacks is sorely needed, as some of the best stuff for VB is unkown to many people here. Please don't only list hacks that pay you, list them all.



Reviews. I need to know if what I'm buying is going to do what it says it does, or if it will turn into vBauction.
Forum. Lets say there are two $100 CMPS hacks that are both rated 5 stars. I'd like to be able to discuss which one is best for my site with other vb.org users.
VB version. I want to see what version is supported.
Don't charge coders to be on the list! I like your free ideas but they are limiting. We need a complete directory - including those that don't generate enough profit to advertise. It will benefit the community much more if we had a full list. If you need to charge them, make them pay to be higher on the list, or to have a bold name, or to have a big description, but don't leave someone out because they can't afford to be on your list. Even if it's just a tiny link at the bottom of the barrel that looks like this, leave them on.

There is such thing as difficult, complex hacks that nobody would code for free, and that will only appeal to 2 or 3 users - they can't afford advertisements with 2 or 3 customers, so please don't leave them off the list.


Charge a monthly fee to be at the top of the list, or to have a bold name, a picture, or something else. This will make up for the ones who get on free.

[micheal332001]

I think this is a good idea all round but as many have said there will be problems with it.

problems i see is small hack coders like myself will not be able to pay to put a link up on here,
Why the reason being im a single dad and i dont get much in the way of money.

Someone said why not keep the hacks free and let people donate to them, well let me say people will not donate to hacks as they want every thing for free and they dont care how much work has been put into a hack.

Yes we all want things for free but if you like some thing someone has made help them out and send some money, But no one does. This is why some coders have started to charge for there hacks as they are not getting any thing from anyone.

Coders will still make free hacks and call them hackname lite or some thing like that.
In there Signature they would be able to put a link to where to buy the pro version of there hack.
Maybe instead of making a forum or some thing up to list all commercial hacks that some coders have for sale,
Why not make a new members list up with all the coders and in that list it shows there website where to get there hacks from.
This way there is no extra cost to vb.org or any coder.

Or why not just let coders put a link in there signatures only 1 per coder this would save all the problems.

[WNxWakko]

I don't agree with allowing Commercial hacks to find their way into vb.org. I believe in the short-term everything would be reasonable. We would see a handful of commercial mods and for the most part we would all still continue to enjoy the free mods we have today. I think a large part of the good mods are already released and more than likely what you see now, probably wont convert to commercial. I think what will happen is when VB releases the next version 4.0 and all the mods have to be rebuilt. The Long-term effect I believe is we will see a huge boom in commercial mods and find many of our favorites that have been ported from v2 to 3 to 3.5 or even many of the newest and latest mods in 3.5 no longer free. A lot of them will see $$ in their eyes and think, hey why not port it and make a few bucks. The free mods will decrease and all the high quality mods will cost money.

Guess what will happen if most of the mods disappear? You will see alot not renewing and moving over to the next biggest board in line that has the most free mods and VB will lose in the end. Sure you will still retain alot of members who don’t mod, those that buy, install and go. They won’t be affected, but are you willing to give up a chunk of your valued and very loyal members in exchange if this turns out as I predicted? Do you like to gamble?

--------------------------------------

Now, let’s assume no matter what I say, you go ahead with the support. In that case which I do not support, I would make some suggestions.

I think a commercial directory should be on its own domain selected by the vb.org team, something like vbservices.net or com if you wish. Keep it separated and the negative effects might not be as bad. I also agree that they should only be viewable by licensed members.

Now there is the argument that if you have commercial, then it should be open for newcomers to see. I agree and disagree. The solution would be to allow the viewing of the directory by anonymous visitors with some things hidden. Hide the mods home URL support link, hide the author name, hide any download links, and hide anything that remotely connects that user to the mod or website to obtain the mod without being licensed. This does two things. It allows those shopping for a board, looking at what’s offered with VB and the mod community. They get to view what the mod does in a summary. However, you not allowing the viewing of any contact info, author info or anything to keep out people running illegal version of the board searching for mods. I say the author name because they could just Google it and it would take them to anyone’s site that has the credits and connect the dots. I believe anyone that is so set on lettings anonymous users’ view this directory isn’t thinking about the illegal versions, the people who don’t pay, that use bit-torrent to get the latest board. They will benefit by a commercial site openly published. I stand behind the team here in their statement of making it member viewable only that would be the best security of all.

I also think charging them to publish on the directory is a good idea. It helps keep the directory from filling up with every single hack you could imagine just because people want to make some money. You’re not going to get support on vb.org forums for commercially listed mods, so use at your own risk. At least at VB if it goes wrong, the author can help, and even if they don’t, usually other members and staff give you a helping hand.

In the end, stay out of commercial, or at the bare minimum, let them list, but don’t

[dndog]

Adding a monetary aspect to this site would ruin its origins and flavor...capitalism is the true killer of open source and the wonderfulness of the community we have here at vBulletin.org.

One of the main reasons I chose vBulletin over any of the competition was the fact that it had one of the most supportive and helpful hacking communities. By installing many free hacks and experiencing my own stumbles along the way, I've learned a lot about php, all due to this community.

As soon as a paid hacks section is added, people will release hacks for the wrong reasons. Hack-making is NOT that profitable of an enterprise (as many have first gone commercial, then end up releasing their hack free at vB.org), and I think we at vBulletin.org should keep it this way, promoting open source and doing things for the good of everyone. If vBulletin.org fosters/supports the idea that hack making could be profitable, if vBulletin.org allows a large member base to see these paid hacks and increase the sales of them, and if vBulletin.org makes no real reason for its members to release hacks for free, we will end up with only a selection of free hacks that are small modifications, and large hacks (vBadvanced, v3arcade) as commercial only.

Is this good for everyone, or only for those few who make these hacks?

[Justice]

And I feel like everyone's forgetting the big picture. These hacks benefit Jelsoft the most, because many of the major vbulletin updates contain features inspired from hacks. So let me get this straight... I have an innovative idea for my forum, pay a programmer some ridiculous amount of money to get an exclusive, fancy hack, and then vBulletin later adds this feature to their software for everyone else for free? That's counter-productive for the webmasters paying for hacks, only benefiting the coders and Jelsoft. Why can't we just keep the current system, but employ a stronger donation system. We keep things open source and communal, and the coders get some financial compensation for their efforts, and Jelsoft gets a stronger product. Win/win for everyone.

[lazytown]

Here are some of my ramblings.

Originally I wondered why VB.org didn't list all the commercial hacks available. It would be nice to see them all in one place. I don't like having to scour the net to find them. HOWEVER, as I have come to use and love VB.org, I can say that I think it would detract from the quality and quantity of free mods for vbulletin. I own 3 licenses (soon to be 5) and I must say that if it wasn't for free mods here, I might be using some other product (free or commercial).

If there are to be commercial listings (which I think is very likely): I would say that the charge for inclusion should be on the high side. This would hopefully prevent the tiny mods/hacks from trying to go commercial. Also, you would be providing them with quite a good source of advertising and it shouldn't come cheap. The ones who are currently making good money in the addon business can surely afford it. That is the main purpose of this discussion - to include the commercial mods.. I don't think it should be to encourage existing free mods to go commercial.

My biggest worry is that developers of existing mods will change over to commercial once a new version of VB comes out and leave their existing users with the option of removing their mod or paying a fee to continue using it. Although I personally have funds to support this, I would be very upset if I saw this happen to a lot of mods. I've already seen it happen so some here. There should be some mechanism to prevent this from happening (or at least put some restrictions on it). Also, there needs to be a mechanism to prevent users from taking a buggy mod and charging for the then fixed mod (as I've also seen attempted).

Finally, I think it is ESSENTIAL that some part of the site be devoted to discussion of commercial mods. It doesn't have to be within the directory itself, but I think it's important that we be able to rate and comment on commercial mods just as we can the free ones. There should be no "free ride" for the commercial mods vs the free ones.

-vissa

[Jagged Tooth]

I'm happy for vBorg to show commercial hacks as long as they are shown in a different forum to all the awsome free ones :D.

[theodonnells]

Bad Idea! People want everything for free!And they will usually find it.So whats to stop another site popping up with the same hacks for free, who's going to check for copyright, whats to stop unscrupulous coders selling other peoples code!
Wait a minute if i could learn coding!!!!!!
Yes its a great idea im all for it...
Im off to learn to code and will release some really bad hacks very soon.

[waza]

I think it's a bad Id because a lot of free hacks will get paid hacks as soon as this comes here.
It will kinda ruin the free sections, I guess.

However it's nice if we should have a place where all paid hacks are together and you don't have to search for hacks.

[tormodg]

I support the idea of making vbulletin.org primarily a website for discussion of free plugins while opening up for paid sponsorship (ie, the directory). Making money off vBulletin hacks isn't an Evil Thing and it is good to see that it can be treated seriously.

I applaud this proposal and am in favor of it.

[VodkaFish]

I'm all for a commercial directory. I don't wish to get into some philosophical pissing match with some here, so I'm just posting my support for the idea.

[MThornback]

I think that allowing people that have the skill to produce something that people want to buy the ability to market it here is a good idea. I also agree that it shouldn't be allowed to rule the site, because this is an excellent resource for people like me who know enough to change, but not make it ourselves...even if we try :p

My only suggestion is that maybe those who wish to market their hacks, be required to create 1 free hack for every 5 or so paid ones they make? In order to keep the site true to its original intentions :) and keep us one big happy family :D

[Techguy1]

I speak as a user of the site, rather than a contributor. Most of the changes I have made are very specific to our site, but I have used quite a few hacks from here.

I think while a good idea generally, and perhaps helpful to people with bigger hacks, however I believe it will have a negative effect on this community and as many people pointed it out may cause its ultimate demise.

[djjeffa]

Well Ill keep this short
The up side I think there would be alote of great advance hacks
The down side we might have to pay for some of the simple hacks as well.

Now dont get me wrong. I think its great of all the coders that have done free hacks.
If hacks are only costing like $5 then I would have no problem paying for them but when they start geting around $25 up I probly wouldent want to pay that much and Im sure smaller non profite sites would agree as well.

[Mythotical]

I highly don't agree with the directory being fee based as that would defeat the purpose of the topic being brought up. I have disagreed with this from the beginning but things have changed my mind and now I agree with it, but not the fee based part. It should be kept free as the rest of the site is free to use, why charge those of us who have released hacks and style for free a fee to post up our links in a directory where someone can buy a style that we made to sale?

Either way if it goes, it goes, if it doesn't then it doesn't, but I just want to state that charging a fee to have your link in there is ridiculous, its beyond that really. Now if the fee was say a few dollars a month then that would be fine but I have this odd feeling that its gonna cost $10+ to have your link in the directory.

My 2 cents
Myth

[MRGTB]

I thought the same thing as Paul when I read this. Sorry, I've nothing against good coders making a buck for there work. But the whole way this as been designed and thought out to make cash for vb and the staff, while at the same time done quite clever to shun all liability in doing so. Doesn't sit well with me. It just sounds as though you want to make money of the backs of others and carry no responsiblity at the same time.

Sorry, but that my view.

[mclark2112]

My first reaction is, I like it, I have always known there is a world of paid for hacks and styles out there, but have never been able to find them. On the other hand, by making it easier for people to find paid hacks, it will encourage more to go that route....

I still say go for it.

[Vizionz]

its a bad idea for sure. you give the hackers there own section where they make profit there is no way there gonna conti9nue to work on free hacks. why would u chooce to do something free when the time you spent on a hack can now be offered here and people will be forced to buy it if they want it. so look for this site to slowly die and users start switching to other forum software where they can get free hacks and a free community.

I do understand big hacks like galleries Download databases Role playing games. Journal systems having a charge but i cant see paying for little hacks like colored user names or welcome panels :(

[Dennis B]

I also think that it's a bad idea in the medium/long term. For now, most of the great hacks are here and are free. Soon, though, there will be a migration towards paid hacks. I believe that's inevitable, especially with the "support" of vB.org (even if just with links). Every good coder out there will see the opportunity to earn a little extra bucks. And I also think that in the long term this will hurt vB.com.

Coders who have paid-for hacks already "advertise" that in their sigs or in their posts so I don't see how difficult it could be for someone looking for them to find them.

Thanks anyway for listening. :)

[jugo]

I tend to agree with Joeycho on this.

Although the directory is a great idea, the fee will shun away the "little guys". On the other side of the coin, I think that is someone is going to benefit monetarily by having their products advertised on a site such as this, then they SHOULD pay some sort of fee.

So I guess what I am trying to say is:

The Directory is a great idea, but the fee structure should be carefully thought out so as to be inclusive.

Maybe a fee determined by the cost of the product...hmmmm....

[Chris M]

NB: May I please remind you of the rules of this thread, in particular:

You may not address other community members at this time. Keep it on topic and directed to the proposal.

I've edited out the references to other posts, but please, try and stick to the rules of the thread :)

Chris

[BaselineAce]

I think this will encourage more commercial mods, costing us more. =/

[vBintense]

Personally I will not release anything if this goes thru. Why would I work for a site to profit and for those who wish to charge to profit?

If this goes thru the guy who is nice and shares is doing nothing more then helping put money into others pockets. There is no reason for anyone to give anything free in a commercial community.

And that is what this proposal would make vb.org , a commercial community. The staff taking in on profit, and so on? I could see if you used the money and gave it all away to members to promote free scripts, but to give to staff seems to be more a business move.

[lsmba]

I think it's a bad idea on a several fronts; barring the fact that coders/hack developers are free to earn adequate profits for their original works. However, if a coder/hack developer were allowed space to "advertise" their works, I believe there would be an integrity and content compromise that would untimately erode the culture and reason why users of the Jelsoft Software come to vbulletin.org in the first place...to exchange ideas and software enhancements.

Here's an example, one section of the site (vbulletin.org) would allow the coders/hack developers to commercially advertise on one section of the site and in another section permit them to offer their "free" works. I believe that a major conflict of interest would prevail ultimately damaging the good intentions of both scenarios; commercial and free. As with all good intensions, I foresee the potential for more focus on how to use the freeware aspect to enhance the sales aspect.

Now, there is another matter of "hacks" being developed for free use that are not being adequately supported as stated...now, many vbulletin.org users have posted their distaste for developers not supporting their works;this is already occuring and that issue has not been rectified. I respectfully ask..."why would the owners/administrators of vbulletin.org entertain the possibility of allowing developers to sell their works when the developers currently are not offering adequate support as stated?

I truely believe that the proposal to allow advertising of hacks would greatly "take away" from why individuals visit this site...I believe those developers that feel the need to commercialize their hacks should do so on their own sites. Which brings me to another point, I have clicked onto links of some "developers" only to find that they link back to vbulletin.org or that their site is no longer in existence. It is clear that there is much "cleaning up" that needs to be done from an integrity stand point, legal and customer support front, before vbulleting.org entertains the idea of appealing to some developers that wish to use a site that obviously has significant traffic for their advertising medium.

Now, if vbulletin.org is proposing this as a means to "generate a little profit" from a selling point of significant traffic, then why not just charge a nominal one time fee to all registrants, developers and others and refrain form inevitably damaging a good visitor base.

I can go on and on, but, I hope you all see the "many major pitfalls" in the idea to offer commercial space to developers onto a site that has built a reputation for offering free exchange of site ideas and enhancements. Either way you slice it, I think enabling developers to "sell" their works on vbulletin.org is a "lose, lose" proposition.

[BrandiDup]

I don't think I like the idea.

If it does happen, I think a lot of loopholes need to be addressed, first, as mentioned in several posts before mine.

[SMO]

In quick summary...I vote no.

reasoning: I came to vb and come to sites related to vb such as this to learn more. I ran away from "nuke" sites to get away from stuff like this.

I like the community we have now and wish to see it like this for a long time.

[HKAndrew]

simply put:

.org = free
.com = commercial

need I say anymore without using an oxymoron?

[GoTTi]

either way it goes, if a hack creator wants to make his hack a premium paid to use hack then thats his choice and we should allow it. we dont have to use their hacks, but if we want to, then we should have to pay for it if the creator wants us to.

i am for the premium world. since i stirred the pot up in the first place!!

i dont agree with vb asking for a link fee from the creators though. that is something i dont dig since a big portion of the forum has been developed using free hacks, vb should just accept the premium links for free, because we all know that in future releases, hacks releases, free or not, will be in the forum software, and that isn't always fair to the developer, but thats the way it is, and we allow it and theres really nothing we can do about it. but as for taking a fee from creators. no. no bueno.

however the system is setup, with a directory or a sub-forum linking to paid hacks, coo. taking money for it, no. we do pay enough for this forum, somone said that earlier. yall dont need much more.

Paid Hacks allowed here: Yes
Charge creators for linkage: No
Future development of the vbulletin: Priceless

and i might break the thread rule later by reposting on here cuz um...i dunno, just might ;)

[SupermanInNY]

I'm not happy with this notion.
I think vb.org has grown to be a great place to learn about new features and mods that were ought to have been thought of and implemented by vb.com in the first place.
I would rather donate to developers who developed code rather than pay a subscription or a fee to be able to access mods that may or may not be used by me.
I'm trying to understand the motive to ask us as members for the money.

If vb.com wants money from this, it is totally absurd.
This is the work of developers outside of vb.com and vb.com already got its license fees.
So, I'm not sure of who gets the money,. and/or how is it expected to be spent/divided?

Also, all the previous arguments about who is in charge of upgrades.. if this is a paid product, will this be upgraded and supported always?
The example provided by "if I find a word doc in google and it causes damage, will I hold google responsible". HUGE difference. Google doesn't charge. You do ask us to pay!

So my reasoning to object this are:

1. if vb.com wants a stake at this, they should implement these hecks as part of the built-in system and support it directly.
2. if vb.com charges money for the product, they should support it in future releases.
3. who gets the money and how do the great developers here get their share of this?

My vote is: NO,. I'm strongly against this!

-Alon.

[PolyMarauder]

As said before?

.org = free
.com = commercial

Make another site, don’t tarnish this one. I thought this community was all about helping each other out not for profit.

[Marv]

First of all

I understand that everyone tries to make a living and wants to get a piece of the cake. But with this support for paid hacks we all should be aware, that this deciscion is not a minor change of the vbulletin-community, the staff & coders and the outstanding efforts throughout the last years.

This is the edge.

Why do customers choose and register to Jelsoft and vBulletin ?

As I started to run my forums in the very early days (and for a couple of years) I used UBB. At a later time I had to recognize, that customizing this software was a pain in the ass and the dev-community lacking - beside the performance problems of UBB. What I was looking for was something that is reliable, fast, highly customizable and has a strong Developement-Community which - with tons of hardly coded apps, addons, code-hacks aso - makes the software vBulletin to that outstanding product, that it is today. We also should be clear that software like wbb or others are not that far behind when they are used out of the box - what really makes them unique and devides them are the hacks and mods. And as we speak - this website is the best example, who?s the tip of the spear.

My personal forecast..

What would happen if all hacks which will be released in the future are going to be commercial hacks ? At least for about 5 Dollars/Euros each?

I?m running about 25 to 30 hacks on my forums and I think about 10 to 15 are required to give your personal vBulletin-instance a glance of a customized community-board - that would mean I have to spent another grand to get the same results, for what was free until now.

Its obvious?that every little hack would go commercial - because we all are in need of some extra-money. I don?t understand why Jelsoft and vborg are supporting this. Didn?t they asked themselves the same questions:





Do they think it?s an improvement for the coders ? Sure - they should receive some money for their hacks in return.


Do they think it?s an improvement for the potential customer who was about to register to Jelsoft ? No. Hell no. If I would be at this point I would register to someone else where the Dev section is free. Vice-versa I?ld have to face the fact, that paying Jelsoft for vB is just the beginning and the overall costs with all the needed hacks easily double or triple the costs. In other words - have you ever seen a template based, sql driven php-forum that costs at least about 250 to 350 bugs ? Not me - and I would give them hell, who dares to offer something like that with this pricing-scheme..


Do they really think it?s an improvement for their customers ? To be honest - I love this software. But this is the opposite of an improvement. Who would release his hack here to vborg for free if he is aware that someone else is taking parts of his idea and/or code to build a commercial hack upon ? Me or others who believe in OpenSource and support the GNU and the vBCommunity ? Be sure - definitly not ! I don?t care if someone is using hacks or sourcecode I?ve written somewhere until he offers his hack in return for free to the public - all others should be dragged to court.. :dead: But that means also - because of that ! - that you?ll find less and less free hacks for vB - and Jelsoft would be about to loose a - no: the - major reason, to register to their software. Regarding the title of this article: Is it smart to plant a timebomb in your own house ? (If someone wants to sell his code: promote it yourself and leave the rest of us alone. If we want your product, we will find you, so don?t call us - we call you. )
In other words - I would and will end the continuied use of vBulletin if this would become reality. On one hand I?m sad that this commercialization reached now also the range of the modifications and the abolishment of license-free and free modifications feed motion is carried out - on the other hand I?m about to get really upset, that Jelsoft and vborg are seriously thinking about this as an "option".

What can I say now - it?s just sad.
Really sad..

Edit 1:


* Marv votes:



hell.... NO !

Edit 2:
Wayne, I would love to see a public (!) poll added to this proposal..

[Kesomir]

I am against this proposal.

I have always seen vb.org as a "by coders for coders" sharing community and this was a big factor in my decision to choose vbulletin over the competition.

It would be very sad to see this sharing community change into a for profit one. There are other places for that.

I have no problem finding and purchasing various paid hacks for vb if I feel that their service or quality earns that fee, but I can do that now with the existing system without the need to taint the community here at .org

/votes NO.

[libertate]

.org = free
.com = commercial

[mikaelweb]

.org = free
.com = commercial

[3dsoft]

All free plugins & extensions will vanish very soon, which is bad for vbulletin! Coders would think twice before releasing free hacks.

I don't like the idea!

[tehste]

point one: extra addons make vbulletin.
point one: by charging a fee for a listing system that is not guaranteed to make money for the coder the addon maker must take a financial gamble.
point one: without the free addons there wouldn't be a vb.org for the commercial addon listings to be put on (for a fee).
point one: there should be no fee.
point two: why not focus on the way free addons are added and sorted. The present system is horrible to browse, especially for newbs. Maybe then commercial hacks could sit with free hacks but with a big gold dollar to show its commercial maybe with a filter to hide commercial addons for certain users who find it acceptable to pay jelsoft for a forum code and not some individual with a unique idea to increase functionality a fraction of that amount for alot more hard work.

simply: hack releasers make vb.org what it is and vb so popular. There is no reason to charge coders for a listing...

[MidnightPyro]

I can't really see the motiviation behind this or this being a good thing at all. vBulletin.org was designed and has been a source for free and publically available open source modifications for as long as I've owned my vBulletin license. I admire the hack authors that take the time to code, debug, and test their hacks and release them for no cost. Think about it though. It allows commercial hack authors to submit their hacks to a considerably sized audience of vBulletin owners and gain exposure (and consequently...sales). They pay Jelsoft for the right to advertise their hacks. If the commercial hacks start making enough money to justify the fee, more and more hack authors will jump on the band wagon, moving over to commercial options instead of the free open source option. These hack authors will make a profit, Jelsoft will make a profit, and the end user will be forced to pay for hacks that were originally free. Whose winning here?

[Yorixz]

And to share MidnightPyro's opinion I also think this would greatly reduce the popularity of vBulletin/vB.org, I myself wouldn't have bought a license if there were this many free hacks/mods available, I'd have rather used phpBB then - huge hackdatabase but not the same quality as offered here now. I personally prefer donationware, if a hack is really good and very usable I'd rather donate afterwards than pay before seeing anything.

[imported_magjr]

wow

this

wow

[Borgs8472]

I'm glad to see this idea's closer to happening.

As a vb user for 2 years now, it's taken me quite a while to get to grips with the processes that go on at vb.org, complex hack installs and the fuzzy mysterious world that is commercial additions.

Having realised that a good webmaster's bills do no end at the cost of a vb licence, domain and hosting, and often dismayed that there is little incentive for coders to make large additions to vb for free, I'm glad this opportunity has opened.

Most importantly however, fee or not, I don't want this directory full of:

* Crap, be they near identical versions of free hacks
* Overpriced encrypted things that already advertise everywhere (you know who I mean)
* Third party scripts with minimal vbulletin support
* Loads of hacks aimed at profit making websites. Sorry guys, but a million and one ways to make money on my website is not what I need. Forums are what you spend money on, not what makes you money.

I would like to see a 'pre list' of what sort of directory is being considered.

[COBRAws]

I dont believe this will be a good idea for vBulletin License Owners. This is why.

I paid for a product and costed me money. By paying that fee I was granted the right to access this board and the one at vbulletin.com and download add-ons and mods/hacks/plugins/skins etc etc, made by members for other members.

Of course, I also bought some other paid hacks for vBulletin.

I can only think that when the "Addons Directory" will be present (lets hope not), all the free hacks and some of them very necesary for big boards (and which Jelsoft dont incorporate very fast into future software versions) wont be free anymore.

Someone said "Good businessman wont ask for money for his hack", but... a business man only wants to profit! So, if you provide an addons directory a lot of Free hacks will become Paid Hacks. With this in mind, I would rather choose PHPBB and spend 1 month adding all the necesary addons to make it look and adminstrate it like vBulletin, and not pay 4.000$ for the vBulletin license + 50 other hack fees.

What I say is, a commercial services database is GOOD, because we can contact coders and designers, but an addons directory I cant find a good reason for it to be there.

[Darax The Good]

vBulletin is not free software-in fact it costs a reasonable amount of money. But we all paid for it. I've paid for at least two hacks for my forum and would rather vb.org was my search engine instead of google. I do think that hacks that charge should be kept in separate forums (perhaps a 'commercial' section under the major sections like 3.5 3.0 and so on) for easy searching.

I've seen comments in this thread regarding this crushing free hacks-I disagree. If I made a hack I'd still give it away. Some people charge for some of their hacks and give the others away-and this MIGHT eat into that, but I sincerely hope not. If someone puts the effort into something worth buying then people will buy and guess what-there will be more hacks to choose from if the people who want to get a little coin for their hard work have an incentive like a big marketplace. Sure, you might need to paypal 20 bucks or 100 bucks or whatever depending on the hack-but that is in the face of it not existing and you have to write it yourself-which is usually more expensive in terms of your time than buying the software. vB isn't cheap-but it was way cheaper than my alternative: writing my own.

I'd charge a commercial addon post a certain amount of money to make the post and then be done with it. We are smart enough to make up our own minds about whether something is worth paying for. If it is a copy of something that is free then the hack won't sell-people will get the free version. If it adds value over the free hack, however, the people will vote with their wallet...err paypal accounts and the hack will be successful.

I am FOR the proposal of allowing commercial hacks-so long as they are kept in a separate bucket.

Darax The Good.

Hitchhikernet.com, capitalist.

[albn]

I do not like the idea. Don't we spend enough for vB in the first place?

I buy commercial add-on's, and it does not bother me, but commercial should stay seperate from the free.

I can see this NOT working.

Edit: Since I have joined, I noticed some commercial authors have been up in arms about not being able to peddle wares, but I see it this way. You want to sell it, promote it yourself, and leave the rest of us alone. If we want your product, we will find you.

[Azhrialilu]

I'm in two minds on this. On the one hand, I can see how it would be a good thing having all the paid mods in one directory instead of having to either search through signatures of hackers on vB.org or search on google. On the other hand, as has been stated over and over, I do also believe it will start the demise of free hacks/add ons, etc.

I've purchased a few specialised hacks for my forums over the years, but if all the smaller hacks started to become paid-for only versions, I'd have to start thinking twice about using vBulletin as my forum software of choice as, having six kids to think about, I don't have the money needed - or the coding know-how - to either pay to have the hacks I need or to code them myself.

So, I think I'm going to vote no on this one.

[C_P]

Let me hear your comments.. Make sure they are thought out and clear, you only get one chance at this. I hope this is stated clear enough.
I think I pay enough for the vB forum software if and when you choose (as I am sure this will be started) to start this process it will be a sad day for many that do this for fun and giving all they can to purchase vB and it's upgrades yearly. As any company is always looking to make a profit (nothing wrong with making a profit mind you) it just seems as will life, the things you used to take for granite and enjoy either become something you have to pay for to enjoy or it eventually dies due to others producing a spawn of offshoots to make user pay for the product. Most recently, Invision and as far back a Free Dial Up internet, etc.
I hope this does not happen but I doubt we really have a say to prevent something like this from happening nor should a few people stop the advancement of a desire to make a profit and expand the horizons, we are a free country built on democracy and all peoples have the right to better themselves.

Personally, I will not be purchasing any mods unless VERY affordable and most likely move to a FREE forum where modifications for the forum are still free.

I had my say for what little it costs now to say it.

[Voltius]

My Cry-Baby response

Reality CheckLook, I don't mean to be offensive or reply with an attitude but:
Some of us are in College, others have families to support, and others have apartments to pay for. (who knew us Admins had lives?)
We have bills to pay
we have our own lives with plenty of people taking nibbles out of our paycheck.
Site Admins are NOT rich people
We already coughed up $160 for vBulletin, and $30 a year for upgrades
phpbb has a titanic library of mods and hacks all for free, with members and the community all offering support and maintenance
Look at Coppermine image gallery, FireFox, OpenOffice, Thunderbird, Xoops, Mambo, these people create and maintain some seriously complex scripts and you want to charge money for a stupid HACK? While message board systems like phpbb offer hundreds if not thousands of the same hacks for FREE.
it seems today that anyone even slightly capable of creating any sort of script wants money for it. AND you want to give them a place, that supports their *greed? (greed is explained below)
Why? Why, Is everyone so obsessed now-a-days with charging money for things that should be free, and are already offered for free in other places?


*Explination of Greed
*If it's not greed then what is it? Extentions and Hacks for FireFox and Thunderbird & God only knows how many more Programs are all free. With people happily contributing to them without getting any sort of payment. The creators for these scripts & extentions, mods & plug-ins are all proud contributors and as far as I know, I have yet to see anyone ask for money. Donations, yes. But no-where have I seen people ask for payment.

If these free communities can survive then what's the purpose of constantly finding more and more ways to charge people for things that should obviously be free.

Side-Effects
I understand that the creator of ______ Mod or hack has the right to ask for money to suppor thier art, but by you giving them a place to do this, you are incouraging them, and by doing that, it's only a matter of time, before every average hack writer starts charging $$$ for their mod.

What this reminds me of
This is a perfect example of the old days, before OpenSource became popular. Any idiot that knew how to create a "hello world" program, would charge $20 for it. The net, and mostly Download.com (cnet) was filled with some of the most STUPID and simple programs that were all $20. For some reason this price has not changed, a simple icon editing program costs the same as a simple backup program while there are free ones, better ones, with more features out there. Ironic? or Sad?

Giving Yourself AND vBulletin a BAD image
Anyone who takes a look at vB.com ends up here to check out how good the community is. What kind of an image will you be giving them? You might think that by showing off your "commercial services directory" a.k.a. money pillaging service, a proffesional one. But the truth is this, When they see you're charging Green for hacks and mods that phpbb and dozens of others offer for free... Not only are you turning people off to your community, you're giving vBulletin in general a Greedy image. How well will you sleep when you realize it's your service that makes vBulletin look like a dangerous investment? vB.org is probably the most popular and one of the few sites that offers mods and hacks and support for such things. You represent all of us, don't forget that.

Personally, It seems vBulletin is getting to be a very very expensive investment, and I'm begining to slightly regret giving so money for a script that cannot call it'self the most customizable, neither the most stable and secure. A LOT of money, TOO much money, is flying out of my pocket, and I swear right here right now:


I REFUSE to support any commercial hacks that this site offers for purchase, I'll find them somewhere else, I'd rather blackmail one of my script monkey buddies and pay them a few paypal dollars to write me one instead, but supporting this idea is something I refuse.

People need to stop asking for so much. And while it may seem like I'm the one asking for too much. Lets not forget, I'm not the one trying to charge money for services offered elsewhere for free.

[kewl1uk]

I think I would support commercial hacks provided there was some sort of comment structure so that members could comment on commercial hacks. Also there would need to be clear divisions so that commercial hacks can be separated from free hacks. For example is a hack which asks for payment to get support a commercial hack or not. And is a hack which is free but offers paid add-ons commercial or not?

[Ike013]

Well, I also have a little something for peepz around here to think about:

Governments will love you all to earn a little something extra that they can raise taxes upon. Now you all will be saying they never will find out, but if Jellsoft and all related boards seem to like to apply legislation, they should know that in that case they might face legal actions if they don't give out the list of members that earn money + the amount.

Unless of course all our more then happy to earn a bit extra coders are so eager to declare their little profits to the local administrations so they can be taxed over them.

Sorry about my crappy English, and lol no I'm not the one who wants to spoil someones dreams about quickly making some extra money.

But be sure you know what you ask for, before it hits you.

PS: I like opensource communities.

[AquilaEagle]

I agree with the proposal and I think it is a good idea to get paid for hacks. It might motivate some people to write more :) I also don't think that allowing that will adversely affect free hacks, just look at the strength of OS software these days...

The other thing is people already have links in their sig to their businesses, script providers, style makers etc. If this proposal doesn't go through, will the rules change and no commercial links be allowed at all?

:)

[KimmiKat]

As a few pointed out the dot org being non commercial, I'm against this proposal. If there's a need to do such a thing, use a completely different site, not vb.org.

/me votes no.

[LEAD_WEIGHT]

I do not want to see this here, unless vbulletin.org is charging advertising space for such scripts? It will make it so pathetic if scripts all become copyrighted and people will try to make version of it, then you will see Photopost vs vbAdance type lawsuit all over the place. The only people that will be out in the cold is the member's.

*edit

What happens to paid hacks that has the author skips and runs off with your money? Lets say it was a very popular hack and someone tries to make a replacement, but ask they have no rights to create such a hack cause it is to simular? That will suck if all the good hacks end up that way. :ermm:

[john_rsd]

I am not against this, there are some add-ons that I would pay for.

However

To allow listings from those offering commercial services, I would suggest the following

The directory should be under vbulletin.com, not .org

There should be also a vetting process by vB BEFORE they can place the ad.
The advertisers should have to meet minimum criterea for development, AND support before being acceptable.

The advertisers should have to meet minimum criterea for proven history of mods and support, perhaps even require a minimum number of customer testimonials before being placed.

The advertisers should have to meet minimum criterea for proven compatibility for integration by vb.
vb should charge for this "pre-compliance" service and in return advertisers, third party developers would be advised in advance of code structure changes to be more compliant. (in the long run this will reduce support requirements)
There should be an additional recognition for third party developers who work with vb instead of independantly which can be an indication to prospective customers on the third party providers commitment to providing a better quality of service & support.
They should receive an advertising discount applied for them.

The service & support supplied by vb and vb.org authors is fantastic, but it won't be the first time I have seen great ideas commercialised under a parent umbrella and it back fires as the third party support cannot fill the shoes of the parents when it comes to customer expectations.

Alternatively just have a qualified listing or directory, no fees for ads, users who download and get a benefit from the mods can pay a donation directly to the author if they want support.

Just a few ideas, but i do agree 100% that this should be thought out, planned and executed with no haste at all.

[Trickle]

What about paying for installing hacks? There's a certain hack I can't get to work cause its simply over my head right now being a newbie to all of this. I mean the hack is free for anyone to use and install but for people like me who have just spent litterally 10 hours reading and tweaking and playing with a hack and still can't get it......this is where I would pay someone to install it for me. Its still a free hack, the author doesn't step on anyone's toe's by charging everyone for it, only those who are willing to pay for it to be installed? Not everyone who buys vbulletin is a coder or has the understanding to apply a hack or for that matter the time to make this a hobby.

Just my 2 cents

When will a decision be made about this?

[BamaStangGuy]

I agree with the proposal. I think it is a good idea to have one site for all hacks pertaining to vBulletin. If this place is not going to offer customers all the hacks possible for vBulletin I think it is pretty useless to me. So much for being the one spot to come to for all your vbulletin hack needs. Some of the best hacks out there are paid and you will not find them here sadly.

[wolfstream]

My 0.02 on the topic, as a coder and an admin:
The idea itself sounds great, and I'm all for it. vb.org is the place to go to get hacks, we all know this. Why not allow individuals to link here for a nominal fee to advertise their products. It's an excellent idea, and I'm all for it.


There is no reason to charge coders for a listing...

Try to understand something here:
vb.org is doing a service to these providers by allowing them to make money off of their site, and product. This is certainly not going to be a free event, and it shouldn't be, by any means.
When you go into business, certain amounts of funds must be set aside for advertising. You must advertise if you want to stay alive, in any business, no matter what. A central location like vb.org would be the ideal place to advertise, and yes, it should be charged for. This only enhances the quality of the product as it were.


I think it's a bad Id because a lot of free hacks will get paid hacks as soon as this comes here.

There is no evidence to support this, only a fear of this. Most (note: most) of the hacks that are in the db already aren't even worthy of being charged for, so we're probably not going to go down that road any time soon.

The list would have to be something rather heavily moderated to ensure that these products (hacks/etc) aren't exact copies, or even duplicates in some sense of the word of something that someone has already offered for free. Action would need to be taken if someone reported that the hack was indeed something that had already been released, or a copy of someone else's code.

As to "Why pay, didn't we pay already?":
I , for one am all for this mod, and I've paid a yearly rate for a few years now. Why? Because, to me, at the time, it was what I could do. $160 is not pennies to someone running a small business.

Yes, we paid for VBulletin, but what you have to understand is that you're not purchasing VBulletin. Instead, you are purchasing commercial services and hacks to VBulletin, stuff that's not a part of the default package, and shouldn't really be. The VB developers have enough on their plates without working on stuff like this, honestly.

The hacks that will be displayed will need to be something of professional quality hacks, and the developers should, indeed, be paid for their work. I'm not saying that they should demand another $160 like some do, unless it is warranted (and I've yet to see one that is), but I am saying that their work should be paid for somehow. This gives them an excellent opportunity to place an advertisement (again, that's just what it is) in a comunal place, and will probably pick up a good bit of business from it, providing (of course) that their product is worth what they're charging for it (and in that case, I HAVE seen a few that are).

As a developer, if my vb skills were that great, I'd be all over this, as an opportunity, which it is. This is something that will, indeed require a good deal of moderation though.

[GraphicW]

I can fully understand someone wanting to get paid for their work, especially in the case of complex hacks. I am still against a directory of commercial hacks here. I am old school and when I first came onto the web in the early 90's, there were all kinds of free services and people were willing to help one another. Now these days, everybody and their dog is out to make a buck and you have to constantly build castles around your mailbox just to hold back the flood of spam. The same pattern is here, but without the spam. The activity level as far as hack development has slowed down, this site is not as helpful as it used to be and truth be told, I rarely ever find myself here. It used to be you could ask a question and you would have people jumping all over one another to get you an answer. You just don't see that anymore.

I know life is getting harder and finding new ways of earning money is sometimes a must, but just as it is hard for the hack developers, it is also getting hard for the prospective customers as well. Many people here do not run sites to make a profit, their goal is to provide the best community possible within their budget.

I find myself looking in the direction of PHPbb more and more these days as it seems the hack community at Vbulletin.org has been changing for the worst over the past two years. I struggle to find hacks with Vbulletin to allow me to accomplish what I want with my site (especially a good blog with the board). I have this problem even finding a paid script or hack to do some things I would like. I look at PHPbb hacks and I see ithese things (good blogs and etc) and they are almost always FREE!!!!!

I will quit rambling now. I hope that you can see where I am coming from here. The saying of, "Can't squeeze blood from a turnip" is coming to mind here. It just seems that a Vbulletin board these days is becoming a money pit when even a little increase in functionality can result in a $100 investment as well as another annual fee for access to updates.

[b00k]

i vote no thanks

[Wayne Luke]

Thanks for all the replies. I will go over them and further discuss this with staff to see how to proceed.