sup with the attitude we get from staff here?

[GoTTi]

whats up with zach's reply...

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=102030

there is so many posts like this from staff. very rude. this is like a constant thing. just asking a question, and we get a snappy reply and thread gets closed like we cant say anything more on the subject.

aint got nothing positive to say why bother saying it? i just asked a simple question, no need for rude comments, and then close the thread so we cant even reply to the rude comment.

[peterska2]

Nothing wrong with that post IMO. There's a whole massive thread discussing that subject so there's no need for a new one. I'm with Zach on that.

[cinq]

I beg to differ.
I think the very last comment was meant to incite. No need for that imho.

[Paul M]

Dunno, there seems no excuse for such a reaction, but in recent weeks such outbursts seem to have become the norm (from members as well).

Everyone appreciates that real life can sometimes get in the way, but you can't just keep trotting it out as an excuse week after week - according to the forum leaders screen there are 12 moderators and 3 admins - how many of these do you regularly see ? If real life is such a problem then maybe they should allow others to take up roles.

It's becoming a depressing place to visit atm, it's only really supporting my work that still drags me here daily.

[Jenta]

The less mods say the better imo. They represent Jelsoft whether they like it or not. As customers there is no need to be treated in that fashion. I highly doubt things will ever change though. Only thing you can do is stop buying their products.

[Zachery]

My point was not to be rude, I was only pointing out the facts. I am sorry if I came off that way.

However, there was no reason for yet another when 3.5 coming thread, so I responded and closed it.

[Regs]

Status quo.

[filburt1]

My point was not to be rude, I was only pointing out the facts. I am sorry if I came off that way.

However, there was no reason for yet another when 3.5 coming thread, so I responded and closed it.
I agree. The question "why isn't vB.org upgraded to 3.5 yet" has been repeatedly asked. If you do not approve of his actions, contact an administrator rather than inciting more debate that will not lead to any change.

[GoTTi]

got closed for some reason....

in reply to filburt's post:

my thread wasnt "why isnt vb.org upgraded" it was just asking when is it going to happen, if there is a date specified yet. its just a question, not an attack or anything on the board and how its being ran, so you guys shouldnt be taking it that way.

[TyleR]

havent y'all learned that obviously vB.org has way more code added than a vanilla vB install? with the release of 3.5.x, they planned another feature, the "Hacks Database", which obviously will take some time to do..can't you people just be patient? Stop bugging Xenon and the other staff workng on getting this site ready for the 3.5.x conversion. It'll be done when it's done. Plain and simple.

[Brad]

No one is taking it as an attack, you are making one small mis-understanding in to a big problem over nothing.

Zachery has explained himself and that's really all that can be done. If we leave these kind of threads open in the public forums it leads to people taking sides.

These type of things are best done in private by contacting one of the admins and letting them handle the issue, if you want to go above an admin Wayne Luke (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/member.php?u=5843) is the guy you should talk to.

As for why your first thread was closed, there was already a large thread in site feedback related to the upgrade here: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=97215

There is no ETA on the upgrade, when it happens it happens.

[Wayne Luke]

Threads merged and re-opened.

[Corriewf]

I think there has been some misunderstandings here. The reason he stated that these threads are slowing the progress is that for each one that is created, those that are working on the upgrade are having to stop what they are doing to answer them. That is impairing the overall flow. The fact of the matter is that vbulletin.org is currently fuctional and providing services as expected per the theme.

As far as attitude goes, you have to remember that a lot of the staff here were chosen based on their background in coding. I am not trying to be mean, but coders in general are not the most customer service oriented people. Also keep in mind the general age demographic of vbulletin. This reflects largely on the corporate culture of vbulletin. They are able to provide such revolutionary products because of this culture. Although regulated by Jelsoft, vbulletin.org is staffed by volunteers and are not paid. This means that certain personal responsibilities take precedence of certain obligations of vbulletin.org. This is why they must have a larger staff then what may be expected of a site of this size.

[Ramsesx]

Oh, thought it's 3.5 already here :rolleyes:

[Boofo]

Everyone must also remember that although we are part of the staff here, we are also members and we have opinions and ideas just like everyone else. That doesn't mean when we are contributing in a debate thread, that we are representing Jefsoft or the staff here while posting in that thread. I enjoy as good debate as well as the next member. True, being staff does bring with it a certain amount of responsibility. But I for one will never use (and have never used) that position while posting in a thread that I am contributing to. ;)

[Corriewf]

Everyone must also remember that although we are part of the staff here, we are also members and we have opinions and ideas just like everyone else. That doesn't mean when we are contributing in a debate thread, that we are representing Jefsoft or the staff here while posting in that thread. I enjoy as good debate as well as the next member. True, being staff does bring with it a certain amount of responsibility. But I for one will never use (and have never used) that position while posting in a thread that I am contributing to. ;)

Yes the last thing anyone wants here are robots reflecting and/or regurgitating the same information. It would detrimental at the very least to the community here. I enjoy the personalized experience we indulge in here. I think we take it for granted, especially in a world where more and more companies are moving to a streamlined atmosphere. I like the idea of not being treated as another number.


Besides where else could you call boofo booby and get away with it. ;)

[jlaine]

whats up with zach's reply...

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=102030

there is so many posts like this from staff. very rude. this is like a constant thing. just asking a question, and we get a snappy reply and thread gets closed like we cant say anything more on the subject.

aint got nothing positive to say why bother saying it? i just asked a simple question, no need for rude comments, and then close the thread so we cant even reply to the rude comment.

I see nothing wrong with his reply...

Do you run a decent sized BBS?

If you did/do, and were inundated with questions of that nature (especially since the topic at hand has been covered in the past), eventually some sort of verbal rhetoric would come out of you too, wouldn't it?

Seems pretty mild for a response, I think you're exhibiting a little too thin of skin personally.

[Sean S]

I see nothing wrong with his reply...

Do you run a decent sized BBS?

If you did/do, and were inundated with questions of that nature (especially since the topic at hand has been covered in the past), eventually some sort of verbal rhetoric would come out of you too, wouldn't it?

Seems pretty mild for a response, I think you're exhibiting a little too thin of skin personally.

I agree as well, plus why is there always these questions when a new version comes out? I mean what difference does it make for you to see this site updated to the new version when the current version works without a single problem? If you are here that means you most likely own a vbulletin license, so if you really want to see it, download it and try it out on your server under "testvb" directory. That's the only thing I don't understand.

[Corriewf]

I agree as well, plus why is there always these questions when a new version comes out? I mean what difference does it make for you to see this site updated to the new version when the current version works without a single problem? If you are here that means you most likely own a vbulletin license, so if you really want to see it, download it and try it out on your server under "testvb" directory. That's the only thing I don't understand.


Most are more concerned with the implementation of the hack database.

[amykhar]

This is probably a dumb question, but how would you rather see duplicate threads be handled? Should it have been merged with existing threads on the matter?

VB.org gets a LOT of duplicate threads, and I'm not sure why. Wouldn't it drive you batty on your own site to have a lot of threads asking the same question and then have to give the same answer over an over again? Is it not better to point to the existing conversation and close the duplicate or to merge the duplicate?

[Sooner95]

I just simply post the link to the original thread on a particular qustion asked and give a brief explaination. If the person has a problem, they can always PM me. If they never do, then it wasnt that big of a deal :)

[sabret00the]

Threads merged and re-opened.

would've been the best action in the beginning to just say theirs already a thread on it, post the url and have it be done with.

however Zach has explained himself and he didn't mean any harm, he is very hit or miss in his interaction with people, that's nothing new.

this thread, really doesn't need to be open any further though :)

[Jenta]

This is how I would have handled it.

Hi blah,
Thanks for inquiring on the progress of our planned upgrade to vBulletin 3.5. Unfortunately, we do not have a time estimate at this point. You can be assured that we are working hard toward this goal as we know this is what out customers want.
Since there is already a discussion on this and to ensure that your voice does not get lost, I am going to merge your thread with the existing discussion.
Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.

If I can be of any further help, please do not hesitate to ask. Thanks for your understanding.

[sabret00the]

This is how I would have handled it.

that's all too formal for my liking, a simple

"we don't rightly know :( but it's already being discussed here 328703

thread closed"

the use of smilies can really help.

[amykhar]

So many of us who have smaller, more homogeneous forums forget how difficult moderating a larger forum and being pleasant all the time can be. I'm not a moderator here and I find the duplication of threads and the posting in the wrong forums and other site etiquette issues to be very frustrating. I don't think I'm alone either, because when somebody asks a question in the hack release forums; other members take their heads off. ;)

So, I think we users need to understand the sheer magnitude of the effort required to moderate this site in comparison to our own sites AND I think the moderators can work on some consistancy at times on how to handle all the duplicate threads and such.

It's not the thread closings that are a problem, in my mind. It was appropriate to close that thread and point you to the existing conversation. What's the problem is that it doesn't happen EVERY time somebody starts a duplicate thread.

Where can I get arcade games?
Which is the best arcade?
What is the best photo gallery?
Which CMS should I use?
Why can't I download hacks?

On the user side, we need to stop asking questions without searching first and on the moderator side, I think they need to have a clear plan of action on the topic of duplicate threads and other similar issues.

If we take a step back and consider each other's needs, I think it will go a long way to improving community/staff relationships.

Amy

[Wayne Luke]

this thread, really doesn't need to be open any further though :)

If people have valid concerns, I want to here them. I do know from reading this site that all concerns are not valid and some users have grudges against certain staff members for whatever reasons. However, I still have to evaluate each complaint based on feedback to determine if it is valid. There is really no harm in leaving this thread open.

Besides, Amy asked a question and I would like to see if there are any responses to it.

[Corriewf]

So many of us who have smaller, more homogeneous forums forget how difficult moderating a larger forum and being pleasant all the time can be. I'm not a moderator here and I find the duplication of threads and the posting in the wrong forums and other site etiquette issues to be very frustrating. I don't think I'm alone either, because when somebody asks a question in the hack release forums; other members take their heads off. ;)

So, I think we users need to understand the sheer magnitude of the effort required to moderate this site in comparison to our own sites AND I think the moderators can work on some consistancy at times on how to handle all the duplicate threads and such.

It's not the thread closings that are a problem, in my mind. It was appropriate to close that thread and point you to the existing conversation. What's the problem is that it doesn't happen EVERY time somebody starts a duplicate thread.

Where can I get arcade games?
Which is the best arcade?
What is the best photo gallery?
Which CMS should I use?
Why can't I download hacks?

On the user side, we need to stop asking questions without searching first and on the moderator side, I think they need to have a clear plan of action on the topic of duplicate threads and other similar issues.

If we take a step back and consider each other's needs, I think it will go a long way to improving community/staff relationships.

Amy


Well that could be summed up as damn if you do and damn if you dont. We are all dealing with an ever changing environment. If a question is asked on an old thread then it would be closed for reopening an old thread. If another thread is made then we hit this conversation again. Keep in mind that on a large site as this one, your going to have the same question asked over and over. That is the nature of the beast. You stay on any board long enough and this will happen. You have to think about the perspective of the end user. How long have they been here? ect.

If you dont feel like answering the question then just dont. If your a mod and you are getting tired of answering the question, take a break. Its a big responsibility and people do get burned out.

[AlexUK]

If people have valid concerns, I want to hear them. I do know from reading this site that all concerns are not valid and some users have grudges against certain staff members for whatever reasons. However, I still have to evaluate each complaint based on feedback to determine if it is valid. There is really no harm in leaving this thread open.

Besides, Amy asked a question and I would like to see if there are any responses to it.

I totally agree with Wayne's view, it is good to discuss any issues and get a different perpective on what other members think.
As long as it remains a discussion is healthy to talk about it.

[Chris M]

Well that could be summed up as damn if you do and damn if you dont. We are all dealing with an ever changing environment. If a question is asked on an old thread then it would be closed for reopening an old thread. If another thread is made then we hit this conversation again. Keep in mind that on a large site as this one, your going to have the same question asked over and over. That is the nature of the beast. You stay on any board long enough and this will happen. You have to think about the perspective of the end user. How long have they been here? ect.

If you dont feel like answering the question then just dont. If your a mod and you are getting tired of answering the question, take a break. Its a big responsibility and people do get burned out.

Hence why amy stated that people need to learn to use the Search feature :)

It's a powerful tool and we get duplicate threads because people either don't take the time to search for themselves, or they simply don't understand HOW to use the search...

Chris

[GoTTi]

well, on the several boards i admin, we get multiple questions all the time and i have staff point those questions to the right areas...but everyone is different in how things are handled.

even from the response, i'll still support the site and the mods and mod creators here. i was just courious if there was a time when everyone was gunna take this step to goto the new version. also i wanted to know how it was done on a site like this...making the users database link up with vb.com to verify license's and everything. that isnt something released here is it?

[Corriewf]

Hence why amy stated that people need to learn to use the Search feature :)

It's a powerful tool and we get duplicate threads because people either don't take the time to search for themselves, or they simply don't understand HOW to use the search...

Chris

Yes but old threads get outdated...Example, an old thread about where to find arcade games may reflect links that are no longer valid..... In this field/hobby/ect, time moves very very quickly. There is always a new community or source available....

In example: vbulletinservices.com

Three weeks ago it didnt exist which effected how certain answers where given. Maybe now if someone ask where is a site they can discuss paid hacks for vb, someone will direct them to vbulletinservices.com.......

As the admin of above stated site, I would think you would be able to understand what I am referring to now.

[Chris M]

well, on the several boards i admin, we get multiple questions all the time and i have staff point those questions to the right areas...but everyone is different in how things are handled.

even from the response, i'll still support the site and the mods and mod creators here. i was just courious if there was a time when everyone was gunna take this step to goto the new version. also i wanted to know how it was done on a site like this...making the users database link up with vb.com to verify license's and everything. that isnt something released here is it?

We have numerous custom modifications to vBulletin.org, most prominent and important of which is the licencing system...

Another thing, is the Hack Database - We don't really want to upgrade without it, as we promised it would all change with 3.5...

If we upgrade to 3.5 then don't add the Database until it is complete we will get more hassle of "You promised us x,y,z" than taking our time and getting it done :)

Chris

[Corriewf]

We have numerous custom modifications to vBulletin.org, most prominent and important of which is the licencing system...

Another thing, is the Hack Database - We don't really want to upgrade without it, as we promised it would all change with 3.5...

If we upgrade to 3.5 then don't add the Database until it is complete we will get more hassle of "You promised us x,y,z" than taking our time and getting it done :)

Chris

Couldnt you just smite them with your Satan powers?

[Paul M]

This is probably a dumb question, but how would you rather see duplicate threads be handled? Should it have been merged with existing threads on the matter? We do one of two things - if the thread has a few replies we merge it into the main topic, otherwise we close it with a simple "Duplicate - Please see <url to main topic>".

[Chris M]

Couldnt you just smite them with your Satan powers?

That is only a viable short-term option :p

Chris

[GoTTi]

i could only imagine what the hell the core of the coding that goes on with this .org here to work with everything goes through. and what a problem it might be to upgrade and back things up and get things working properly. must be a hell of a task for whoever does it.

but anyways, good work on all of it. i appreciate it and im sure all of us do...

[Corriewf]

i could only imagine what the hell the core of the coding that goes on with this .org here to work with everything goes through. and what a problem it might be to upgrade and back things up and get things working properly. must be a hell of a task for whoever does it.

but anyways, good work on all of it. i appreciate it and im sure all of us do...

Considering how many people have had their hands in the cookie jar, who knows what the database looks like now.... :)

[sabret00the]

So many of us who have smaller, more homogeneous forums forget how difficult moderating a larger forum and being pleasant all the time can be. I'm not a moderator here and I find the duplication of threads and the posting in the wrong forums and other site etiquette issues to be very frustrating. I don't think I'm alone either, because when somebody asks a question in the hack release forums; other members take their heads off. ;)

So, I think we users need to understand the sheer magnitude of the effort required to moderate this site in comparison to our own sites AND I think the moderators can work on some consistancy at times on how to handle all the duplicate threads and such.

It's not the thread closings that are a problem, in my mind. It was appropriate to close that thread and point you to the existing conversation. What's the problem is that it doesn't happen EVERY time somebody starts a duplicate thread.

Where can I get arcade games?
Which is the best arcade?
What is the best photo gallery?
Which CMS should I use?
Why can't I download hacks?

On the user side, we need to stop asking questions without searching first and on the moderator side, I think they need to have a clear plan of action on the topic of duplicate threads and other similar issues.

If we take a step back and consider each other's needs, I think it will go a long way to improving community/staff relationships.

Amy

honestly in my opinion if it's become such a problem then something needs to be coded that will search the forums and say "is your question already asked in any of the threads in this list

$list

if not please click continue."

just like modifications that don't have zips should auto go in requests.

but you're right i do underestimate how hard it is to moderate a large forum, i haven't done anything remotely so for years, but what i will say is that's not an excuse for a lack of people skills when dealing with people. and if the job is too stressful, it's either upto the mod to step down or the moderator to quit. and if the stress is afflicting that many mods then the team is being given too much responsibility and requires help.

of course this is all just my opinion, you have the experience of being a mod here where as i don't. so you're probably enlightened in ways i couldn't possibly be.

If people have valid concerns, I want to here them. I do know from reading this site that all concerns are not valid and some users have grudges against certain staff members for whatever reasons. However, I still have to evaluate each complaint based on feedback to determine if it is valid. There is really no harm in leaving this thread open.

Besides, Amy asked a question and I would like to see if there are any responses to it.

fair do's :)

[ToughMan]

thanks

[Rich]

Hello,

I guess I don't see the big deal with people wanting to see the site swapped over to 3.5. I visit the site regularly and it works fine as is. When they upgrade, great, but its not like the site is broken right now or anything so I can't see why it is even a discussion that needs to be held.

If the site were broken, I could understand people trying to rush the upgrade. Since it isn't, what am I missing with them upgrading to 3.5?

BTW, I am one of the people that can't stand people asking the same questions over and over and I also can't stand those people that post a release that is a question. Another thing that drives me nuts are new posters that come across 'UNSUPPORTED" mods and talk junk about the author because something isn't working and the author hasn't fixed it. It seems that "reading" is the issue. lol

[Revan]

Hello,

I guess I don't see the big deal with people wanting to see the site swapped over to 3.5. I visit the site regularly and it works fine as is. When they upgrade, great, but its not like the site is broken right now or anything so I can't see why it is even a discussion that needs to be held.

If the site were broken, I could understand people trying to rush the upgrade. Since it isn't, what am I missing with them upgrading to 3.5? vBulletin 3.5 has many standard features that will IMO become invaluable to me and many others on this site.
Notable ones include AJAX posting, persistent thread marking, quick swapping between WYSI and standard posting styles, etc.
Not to mention vBulletin is faster, more stable and easier to extend.

Ill be happy as sunshine once the upgrade is here, but for now I think Ill restrain myself from /wrist

[Princeton]

"12 mods" ... where are they?

... my visits here are less frequent due to the "atmosphere" lately. Some changes are needed. I hope with the new "database" system there will be new faces. I'm not saying that current staff is poor ... it's just that there's not enough of them around.

There are only a handful of staff (actually less) that are always around. These are the people that BUILD vb.org. They should be surrounded with people with the same dedication.

Not long ago, one of the best vb.org staff members was promoted to vBulletin Staff. He deserves that title. He's helped many just by being here; just by "moderating"; just by being positive; and he loves to show his work. It's a shame we see less of him here; but, life goes on.

Perhaps a staff reshuffle is needed.
- some people should be downgraded (perhaps a "Visiting Mod" title)
- while others should be dropped (Why keep them if they are no longer active or "moderating"? Life goes on ... things change ... pass the baton to someone else.)


With that said, it's staff responsibility to watch what they and others say. It's their job to promote a POSITIVE atmosphere.


SUGGESTIONS:
- Ignore it if you do not have nothing positive to say; someone will come along and post the appropriate answer
- Merge the thread with another
- Add a link to other threads so that people could see that it has been discussed previously.


THINGS TO REMEMBER:
- There will always be duplicates.
- There will always be people that ignore the SEARCH feature.
- Text is not a good way to communicate -- no emotions. eg. A message that was meant to be just a "I was only pointing out the facts" could be construed in a "negative" way. Which it was; and will each time someone reads it.



Dunno, there seems no excuse for such a reaction, but in recent weeks such outbursts seem to have become the norm (from members as well).

Everyone appreciates that real life can sometimes get in the way, but you can't just keep trotting it out as an excuse week after week - according to the forum leaders screen there are 12 moderators and 3 admins - how many of these do you regularly see ? If real life is such a problem then maybe they should allow others to take up roles.

It's becoming a depressing place to visit atm, it's only really supporting my work that still drags me here daily.

[sabret00the]

"12 mods" ... where are they?

... my visits here are less frequent due to the "atmosphere" lately. Some changes are needed. I hope with the new "database" system there will be new faces. I'm not saying that current staff is poor ... it's just that there's not enough of them around.

There are only a handful of staff (actually less) that are always around. These are the people that BUILD vb.org. They should be surrounded with people with the same dedication.

Not long ago, one of the best vb.org staff members was promoted to vBulletin Staff. He deserves that title. He's helped many just by being here; just by "moderating"; just by being positive; and he loves to show his work. It's a shame we see less of him here; but, life goes on.

Perhaps a staff reshuffle is needed.
- some people should be downgraded (perhaps a "Visiting Mod" title)
- while others should be dropped (Why keep them if they are no longer active or "moderating"? Life goes on ... things change ... pass the baton to someone else.)


With that said, it's staff responsibility to watch what they and others say. It's their job to promote a POSITIVE atmosphere.


SUGGESTIONS:
- Ignore it if you do not have nothing positive to say; someone will come along and post the appropriate answer
- Merge the thread with another
- Add a link to other threads so that people could see that it has been discussed previously.


THINGS TO REMEMBER:
- There will always be duplicates.
- There will always be people that ignore the SEARCH feature.
- Text is not a good way to communicate -- no emotions. eg. A message that was meant to be just a "I was only pointing out the facts" could be construed in a "negative" way. Which it was; and will each time someone reads it.

i've said for a while that i don't feel the non-active mods should be kept on, it's harsh but their passion for the site is evidently not that of what it should be. saying that on the occasions that they are active as seldom as it maybe, you're left thinking how cool it would be if they were like that all the time.

[mfizzel]

the more you ask the longer it takes.

haha

[Wayne Luke]

There is actually only one person who is listed as a moderator and isn't active currently. Another is listed as a "Retired Moderator". All others have been active.

[Paul M]

There is actually only one person who is listed as a moderator and isn't active currently. Another is listed as a "Retired Moderator". All others have been active.
Rose - inactive (no seen since April ?)
assassingod - inactive (last post Aug 05)
Steve Machol - inactive (last post Mar 05)

Since their promotions, a lot less is seen of Kirbyde & Colin F. Little has been seen of Erwin in the last few weeks.

Personally I don't think it a great idea for "promoted" people like Kirby & Colin (or other Jelsoft staff like Steve) to be moderators here (i.e. dual roles) - their Jelsoft roles must (should) be their priority, meaning they cannot commit the time to here as they once did - it's not as if vb.org isn't swimming in other people willing to help is it ?

[Wayne Luke]

Steve Machol is the Jelsoft Support Manager. He isn't losing his position here.

Erwin is in and out. Just because you don't see him doesn't mean he isn't here.

Rose is Inactive... Assassingod is listed as "Retired".

Andreas is here regularly, I have seen him lurking. I have seen Colin around as well.

This site is not lacking in staff and they are actively pursuing things. Since people are NOSY and need to know where the volunteers are... They have lives, they are volunteers. They are not slaves to this community. One member had to take time off because his wife was very ill. Others are in the middle of Finals. As the need arises, people will be promoted.

The problem with running a site dedicated to Forum Admins is everyone wants to be in charge.

[plubius]

I am never the one to take up for "da man", but I have been to other sites that support other forum software. Compared to them, org staff are great if a little stuck up at times. You should be glad that they are not a bunch of dictators pouncing on any that challenge them. (Well, sometimes I like those kinds of idiots because it is fun watching them act like morons.)

As for staff being chosen from the coder ranks, I am against it in the exclusive sense. You do not have to be a coder to recognise spam and flame.

[Wayne Luke]

As far as I am aware all staff are chosen because they are contributing members of the community not because they are coders.

[Boofo]

I, for one, was not chosen on my coding ability. I made sure of that before I even thought of accepting the position. ;)

[Colejo]

As far as attitude goes, you have to remember that a lot of the staff here were chosen based on their background in coding. I am not trying to be mean, but coders in general are not the most customer service oriented people.

Saying a particular group of people are not customer service oriented because they are a coder or an engineer is a poor excuse and it irrates me any time I hear it. I'm a network engineer and even though I don't have to deal with customers very much I'm still customer service oriented because it's just common courtesy. And my statement is just about this statement in general.

[Corriewf]

Saying a particular group of people are not customer service oriented because they are a coder or an engineer is a poor excuse and it irrates me any time I hear it. I'm a network engineer and even though I don't have to deal with customers very much I'm still customer service oriented because it's just common courtesy. And my statement is just about this statement in general.

I am sure you are and dont let that general statement get to you. It is a general statement and does not apply to every coder. In most proffessional environments a lot of coders are being thrusted into a more direct customer communication environment. The liaisons that once existed are being phased out.

My brother was a top ten programmer for Intel and just wrapped up some work with Rasmus Lerdorf. He is now working for Google. Thinking of him having to do what other mods here do is insane to me. The guy hardly leaves his room and to talk to him is like talking to a robot. He represents the extreme old school coders. I dont think anyone here is like that, but their are still certain aspects of that lifestyle that are present.

I, for one, was not chosen on my coding ability. I made sure of that before I even thought of accepting the position. ;)

It was for your good looks.... :rolleyes:

[Boofo]

It was for your good looks.... :rolleyes:

You're just saying that because it's true. ;)

[Logikos]

"12 mods" ... where are they?

... my visits here are less frequent due to the "atmosphere" lately. Some changes are needed. I hope with the new "database" system there will be new faces. I'm not saying that current staff is poor ... it's just that there's not enough of them around.

There are only a handful of staff (actually less) that are always around. These are the people that BUILD vb.org. They should be surrounded with people with the same dedication.

Not long ago, one of the best vb.org staff members was promoted to vBulletin Staff. He deserves that title. He's helped many just by being here; just by "moderating"; just by being positive; and he loves to show his work. It's a shame we see less of him here; but, life goes on.

Perhaps a staff reshuffle is needed.
- some people should be downgraded (perhaps a "Visiting Mod" title)
- while others should be dropped (Why keep them if they are no longer active or "moderating"? Life goes on ... things change ... pass the baton to someone else.)


With that said, it's staff responsibility to watch what they and others say. It's their job to promote a POSITIVE atmosphere.


SUGGESTIONS:
- Ignore it if you do not have nothing positive to say; someone will come along and post the appropriate answer
- Merge the thread with another
- Add a link to other threads so that people could see that it has been discussed previously.


THINGS TO REMEMBER:
- There will always be duplicates.
- There will always be people that ignore the SEARCH feature.
- Text is not a good way to communicate -- no emotions. eg. A message that was meant to be just a "I was only pointing out the facts" could be construed in a "negative" way. Which it was; and will each time someone reads it.

I couldn't agree with you anymore. This is the EXACT reason why my activity has droped dramiticly. I had a problem with one moderator and reported it to JelSoft some time ago. The additudes in a couple of the staff members here really need to change and lighten up. This site used to be fun some time ago, that sadly has not been the case here for awhile.

[Corriewf]

You're just saying that because it's true. ;)

Besides what else do you have to do in the nursing home pop.

[Revan]

I, for one, was not chosen on my coding ability. I made sure of that before I even thought of accepting the position. ;)If you were, I would seriously doubt the integrity and sanity of the administration :p

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Ouch.

[Chris M]

If you were, I would seriously doubt the integrity and sanity of the administration :p

We still do that anyway :p

Chris

[Paul M]

Steve Machol is the Jelsoft Support Manager. He isn't losing his position here.There is a difference between being an active moderator and being a member of Jelsoft staff. He is not an active moderator.

Rose is Inactive... Assassingod is listed as "Retired".
Retired / inactive - is there a difference ?

Andreas is here regularly, I have seen him lurking. I have seen Colin around as well. Please re-read my post. I never said they weren't here, I said they were less active, and that this site must now be a second priority for them.

This site is not lacking in staff and they are actively pursuing things. Since people are NOSY and need to know where the volunteers are... They have lives, they are volunteers. They are not slaves to this community.Nice - insult anyone who asks questions.

The problem with running a site dedicated to Forum Admins is everyone wants to be in charge.Who said they wanted to be in charge ? I'm sure it's no secret that I offered to be a moderator the last time an opportunity arose - but clearly my outspoken views do not suit those in charge, so I don't think anyone needs to worry.

[sabret00the]

There is a difference between being an active moderator and being a member of Jelsoft staff. He is not an active moderator.to add weight to that, i feel all because someone visits doesn't mean they're active, active in my opinion is posting, whether it's helping out with support, helping in the help forums or even just posting int he lounge. but of course they should have a visible presence in any forum they're assigned to.

[Zachery]

Paul, Steve is active here, just not in the overall community aspect. He handles other things here. He is a moderator here (and active I might add) :p He is also a manager for jelsoft, hes not going anywhere :p

Rose is on leave, personal reasons.

Assassingod is retired due to time constrains.

[Corriewf]

The problem I see with Rose is someone new or not knowing better and seeing Rose listed as a mod and contacting Rose for help. When that person gets no response, they may feel that the staff here do not care or do not help ect. I dont see this being an issue often, but I am sure it has and will happen.

Unless being a mod here is an absolute status symbol for these two people, I would think it would not be mean to temporally remove them from staff until they return. I am sure they wouldnt want to come back to a full pm box anyhow. I wouldnt. Also maybe putting in thier sig that they are staff, but not active at this time.

[GoTTi]

the staff here does a great job to keep the forum in check...sometimes. just the comments and attitude towards us gets a lil bit to rude, and its not always needed....everyone here does a great job though...

lets not forget, if wayne or any admin wanted to, they can easily check the modcp logs and see whose doing work and whose not.

in my eyes, being a mod is a job, not just a privelage or volunteer work. just cuz steve is a mngr for vbulletin doesnt mean he should be staff here and be bothered by people looking for help and junk with hacks and mods and stuff thats going on here.

with my staff, i go over the modcp logs and see what mod is doing what...checkin if threads are getting handled and users problems within my problem forum and other request. i watch all that, doesnt take long to go over things...but if i see a mod, or even admin, not doing work, answering problems or questions, or just postings replys and threads instead of mod'n the forum and making sure threads are in the right forum and stuff, then i have to hit them up and see whats the issue with that, make sure they understand that being a mod is more then a title to me and i expect things to get done since i cant always baby sit the board, so on. fortunately ive only had to remove a few mods for inactivity, but my staff is pretty solid.

staff and team should be based on what they bring to the community the site is going after, not developing status or if they are some1's friend. if they got things to do in their lives and cant put in time and work on a board to make sure things are running smoothly, i would just remove them from staff and choose individuals trustworthy enough to have the powers to help the community go.

yea, life moves on in peoples lives...well, so do forums.

[---MAD---]

to add weight to that, i feel all because someone visits doesn't mean they're active, active in my opinion is posting, whether it's helping out with support, helping in the help forums or even just posting int he lounge. but of course they should have a visible presence in any forum they're assigned to.

why do so many people moan?
I think this site is going very well and i think its perfect!

The site doesnt have to be here...they can close if they want...they dont need to have staff active all year around..they dont get paid!

Also, why do so many moan about upgrading...who cares?

If you dont like this fourm i say leave lol...

Anyway, good work vbulletin.org!

[Paul M]

Paul, Steve is active here, just not in the overall community aspect. He handles other things here. He is a moderator here (and active I might add) Well then clearly we have different views on what "active" is. Would you consider me active if i had not posted since March ? I don't dispute he may have a behind the scenes roll here, but I think moderators should be visible to those they moderate, i.e. activly posting on the site. :)

[sabret00the]

why do so many people moan?
I think this site is going very well and i think its perfect!

The site doesnt have to be here...they can close if they want...they dont need to have staff active all year around..they dont get paid!

Also, why do so many moan about upgrading...who cares?

If you dont like this fourm i say leave lol...

Anyway, good work vbulletin.org!

why was i quoted? :(

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Well then clearly we have different views on what "active" is. Would you consider me active if i had not posted since March ? I don't dispute he may have a behind the scenes roll here, but I think moderators should be visible to those they moderate, i.e. activly posting on the site. Personally i think the opposite. Moderators should be (in their moderating role) be almost invisible on a site. Only sometimes it is needed to show that you are watching to the public as a warning/example. The best work is done unnoticed.

* Marco van Herwaarden thinks that he is a bad moderator by his own description.

[FleaBag]

I agree Marco. On my site I don't appear as a moderator, the majority of people don't even know I run the site, they just think I post news. ;)

[sabret00the]

Personally i think the opposite. Moderators should be (in their moderating role) be almost invisible on a site. Only sometimes it is needed to show that you are watching to the public as a warning/example. The best work is done unnoticed.

* MarcoH64 thinks that he is a bad moderator by his own description.

:( at invisible moderators. people always forget that moderate can mean '+' it doesn't always have to mean '-'.

[Chris M]

Well then clearly we have different views on what "active" is. Would you consider me active if i had not posted since March ? I don't dispute he may have a behind the scenes roll here, but I think moderators should be visible to those they moderate, i.e. activly posting on the site. :)

We are bound to - Everyone has their own unique moderating style, so what is your preference may not be so for someone else ;)

Chris

[sabret00the]

the above rather touching moderator love moment was sponsored by vBulletin in association with PHP and MySQL and also Dark Project Studios

:love:

[noppid]

Well then clearly we have different views on what "active" is. Would you consider me active if i had not posted since March ? I don't dispute he may have a behind the scenes roll here, but I think moderators should be visible to those they moderate, i.e. activly posting on the site. :)

I see members quality of membership quantified in participation often here. However, most times, I have no idea what that assessment is based on.

How many hacks do I have to publish for each available vB version to be considered an active contributor?

How many hacks do I have to port to the new version of vB to be considered an active contributor when other hackers leave the community and no longer offer support for broken code?

How many hacks do I have to help new members fix when they do a release and can't fix their own bugs to be considered an active contributor?

How many times after I install a hack, read the code, find a better way to do something, then share it with the author to the entire communities benefit to be considered an active contributor?

How many general vB questions do I have to field to be considered an active contributor?

How many confirmed bugs do I have to report to be considered an active contributor?

Let's find out who we are as members and maybe knowing that we would be less likely to clash with moderators and accuse them of favoritism. A point system would be absolute. Opinions are too subjective.

These guys must be tired of being picked on!

Coming soon...

Quantifing "Commercial"

[trackpads]

whats up with zach's reply...

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=102030

there is so many posts like this from staff. very rude. this is like a constant thing. just asking a question, and we get a snappy reply and thread gets closed like we cant say anything more on the subject.

aint got nothing positive to say why bother saying it? i just asked a simple question, no need for rude comments, and then close the thread so we cant even reply to the rude comment.

I think sometimes people get frustrated, they are human and should be allowed. I dont think I have ever had a mod or staff member act rudely towards me. And god knows I probably have deserved it a few times :)

[amykhar]

It's not enough to be an active contributor in a community to be a moderator. I'm sure your forums have some people you would much rather be LESS active that would dearly love a moderator position on your site - but there's no way in Hades you would want them in that spot.

I think the moderating staff that is here now is a decent size. Things receive attention promptly. And, I think Erwin and Stefan genuinely care about the needs of this community and have the users' best interests at heart.

And, I know that they are willing to listen when y'all have genuine concerns, as is Wayne.

Amy

[Marco van Herwaarden]

at invisible moderators. people always forget that moderate can mean '+' it doesn't always have to mean '-'.
Where in my post i am saying that moderating means only '-'??

Moderating means make sure the community is going according to the rules set, and where possible things run as smooth as possible. Sometimes you do that with some silent diplomacy, sometimes in public.

PS Try looking up what 'moderating' means:
v. mod?er?at?ed, mod?er?at?ing, mod?er?ates (md-rt)
v. tr.
To lessen the violence, severity, or extremeness of.
To preside over: She was chosen to moderate the convention.

v. intr.
To become less violent, severe, or extreme; abate.
To act as a moderator.

Not sure if we always succeed on all those points, but be sure that we are trying.

[noppid]

It's not enough to be an active contributor in a community to be a moderator. I'm sure your forums have some people you would much rather be LESS active that would dearly love a moderator position on your site - but there's no way in Hades you would want them in that spot.

I think the moderating staff that is here now is a decent size. Things receive attention promptly. And, I think Erwin and Stefan genuinely care about the needs of this community and have the users' best interests at heart.

And, I know that they are willing to listen when y'all have genuine concerns, as is Wayne.

Amy

My post had nothing to do with becoming a moderator. It's a suggestion to quantify a members participation for moderators to stop the perception of favoritism.

I know it's an out there idea, but for now, there's no way to know where a member stands. It's purely opinion and that opinion varies from staff member to staff member some are pointing out.

I think it's why these type threads are started by a different members when others get closed. Everyone's perception is different. Without a finite way to qualify a member, we will get opinions. We all know how well a jury of opinion works. :/

I don't expect this to be implemented, I'm just putting it out there so the point is made. There is only opinion. When there is only opinion, clubs and inside gangs become possible. The members are warning that this is their perception. A good business would listen to it's customers and find a way to even the playing field.

I don't have the answer, but the question is very very clear.

[amykhar]

I am not sure selecting moderators by activity levels is enough to stop the whole perception of favoritisim. Rather, the key to resolve this issue is consistancy, which is always difficult when moderating controversial threads. The less active moderators don't cause a problem in general. It's the more active ones that get involved in the conversations and debates that sometimes struggle to determine when to shut down conversations and when not to.

That's why the fact that Xenon and Erwin aren't actively debating is actually a blessing. It gives them a bit of objectivity to be able to gently speak with a moderator when the moderator has lost some perspective. Erwin's daily presence here without posting a lot is a good thing. It means he's aware and yet not in the fray.

Amy

[noppid]

Those are very good points. There needs to be a voice of objectivity.

[Andreas]

The guy hardly leaves his room and to talk to him is like talking to a robot. He represents the extreme old school coders. I dont think anyone here is like that, but their are still certain aspects of that lifestyle that are present.

Believe it or not, I am almost 100% like that :)

[Boofo]

Believe it or not, I am almost 100% like that :)

Boy! You said a mouthful there! ;)

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Hehe, i'd rather not reply to this. :D

Better ask my wife........or maybe better don't

[Boofo]

Hehe, i'd rather not reply to this. :D

Better ask my wife........or maybe better don't

Coward! ;)

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Not coward, trying to protect the innocent listener. :D

[Corriewf]

Geeks!

[trackpads]

Coward! ;)

Boofo! Check it out:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/04/whitehouse.security.ap/index.html

Arkansas... You were right :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Greeks!Greeks? No, Dutch. :D

[sabret00the]

Where in my post i am saying that moderating means only '-'??

Moderating means make sure the community is going according to the rules set, and where possible things run as smooth as possible. Sometimes you do that with some silent diplomacy, sometimes in public.

PS Try looking up what 'moderating' means:
Not sure if we always succeed on all those points, but be sure that we are trying.

the example you gave in association to your dictionary reference talks only of '-'

1. Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme: a moderate price.
2. Not violent or subject to extremes; mild or calm; temperate: a moderate climate.
3.
1. Of medium or average quantity or extent.
2. Of limited or average quality; mediocre.
4. Opposed to radical or extreme views or measures, especially in politics or religion.


n.

One who holds or champions moderate views or opinions, especially in politics or religion. in my opinion a moderator should make sure activity exists (i.e. post = '+') as well as do stuff behind the scenes (i.e. delete posts, move posts, close threads = '-') but of course this argument could go on forever as with us all being admins the idea of what a moderator should do will differ from person to person.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

If posting is the only plus, you should not have moderators, but only active members.

[sabret00the]

If posting is the only plus, you should not have moderators, but only active members.

well no, because the '-' aka 'negative moderation' bka 'behind the scenese stuff' needs doing.

[Boofo]

Boofo! Check it out:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/04/whitehouse.security.ap/index.html

Arkansas... You were right :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Another case that just proves my point. ;)

[Mythotical]

I have to say something, ever since I have been a member here, I have gotten nothing but great attitudes and a great experience. I have befriended a few moderators here which isn't a plus just helpful when you need help coding.

Steve Machol is the best at what he does, when I have issues, he responds to my support tickets within 20-30 mins and that to me is better than alot of forum sites such as phpBB. When he had to forward my ticket to the business manager I had a response within a few hours so support and getting staff of jelsoft to respond is beyond reasonable.

Coming here and asking about them is disrespectful. I notice that activity is less than average for some but good for others.

Lets take Paul M for instance, post count well over 2000, 6.23 posts per day, ok active, lets take Chris M, well over 5000 posts, 3.50 posts per day, whats the difference in activity? There isn't any, lets take another person for instance, me, I have a low post count, I have maybe 1.00 post per day, but I linger in the background, I am PMing alot and checking forums, as well checking up on my hack threads as well checking for threads that I might be able to post in and help, 99% of the time those support threads have been taken care so I just move on.

Activity should not be question here of the moderators or admins, you should appreciate this site being here and get off the staff's back because sometimes they might have had a bad day and didn't mean to post a rude comment or such. As what Wayne Luke said earlier to me that sounded in place but to others is was probably rude. He was probably that way due to these types of threads popping up. If you are curious about a staff member, PM that member or the site admin for an answer, if you can't get anywhere that way, take a look in the announcements forum or look for a thread stating they will be away or such.

Now I will rest my 2 cents and continue lingering.

Cheers
Myth

[TyleR]

I have to say something, ever since I have been a member here, I have gotten nothing but great attitudes and a great experience. I have befriended a few moderators here which isn't a plus just helpful when you need help coding.

Steve Machol is the best at what he does, when I have issues, he responds to my support tickets within 20-30 mins and that to me is better than alot of forum sites such as phpBB. When he had to forward my ticket to the business manager I had a response within a few hours so support and getting staff of jelsoft to respond is beyond reasonable.

Coming here and asking about them is disrespectful. I notice that activity is less than average for some but good for others.

Lets take Paul M for instance, post count well over 2000, 6.23 posts per day, ok active, lets take Chris M, well over 5000 posts, 3.50 posts per day, whats the difference in activity? There isn't any, lets take another person for instance, me, I have a low post count, I have maybe 1.00 post per day, but I linger in the background, I am PMing alot and checking forums, as well checking up on my hack threads as well checking for threads that I might be able to post in and help, 99% of the time those support threads have been taken care so I just move on.

Activity should not be question here of the moderators or admins, you should appreciate this site being here and get off the staff's back because sometimes they might have had a bad day and didn't mean to post a rude comment or such. As what Wayne Luke said earlier to me that sounded in place but to others is was probably rude. He was probably that way due to these types of threads popping up. If you are curious about a staff member, PM that member or the site admin for an answer, if you can't get anywhere that way, take a look in the announcements forum or look for a thread stating they will be away or such.

Now I will rest my 2 cents and continue lingering.

Cheers
Myth

Agreed. Very well said Mythotical.

- Tyler

[Corriewf]

Greeks? No, Douche. :D

No its not douche, its Dutch.:)

[Boofo]

No its not douche, its Dutch.:)

Looks like someone can't even use the quote tags right? ;)

[Corriewf]

Looks like someone can't even use the quote tags right? ;)
Thats it! I am going to call the nursing home pop!

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Lol. :D