Betas for experienced members only!

[trackpads]

Ok,

Not that I am a coder but am a pretty experienced user and I want to say this, Betas should be for other coders and exp. members only. Or by exception.

I am waiting on this hack and it is killing me to watch Danny have to re-re-re-re-re-explain what the heck a fricking beta is to a bunch of newbies, this thread is torturous! I think the hack would have been written by now if he wasnt stomping out fires created by people who shouldnt be using the code yet anyway!

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=96485&page=1&pp=100

Danny is a saint for holding it together.

On another note I would like to announce my first hack:

[vB 3.5.0 Beta 3123] Slap Newbie VB Members who dont know what Beta Versions are for.....

Yup, its in Beta :)

-Jason

[Zachery]

Ok,

Not that I am a coder but am a pretty experienced user and I want to say this, Betas should be for other coders and exp. members only. Or by exception.

I am waiting on this hack and it is killing me to watch Danny have to re-re-re-re-re-explain what the heck a fricking beta is to a bunch of newbies, this thread is torturous! I think the hack would have been written by now if he wasnt stomping out fires created by people who shouldnt be using the code yet anyway!

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=96485&page=1&pp=100

Danny is a saint for holding it together.

On another note I would like to announce my first hack:

[vB 3.5.0 Beta 3123] Slap Newbie VB Members who dont know what Beta Versions are for.....

Yup, its in Beta :)

-Jason

How do you define an expirenced user though? What makes them expirenced enough? A check box in their profile? Nothing would stop them, most users would go check it, and we'd still be at the same square.

[trackpads]

How do you define an expirenced user though? What makes them expirenced enough? A check box in their profile? Nothing would stop them, most users would go check it, and we'd still be at the same square.

post count, join date, custome usergroup where when they join they must agree to the Beta 'manifesto'.

Or, just have a seperate forum for betas like with the 3.0 hacks.

[Zachery]

post count, join date, custome usergroup where when they join they must agree to the Beta 'manifesto'.

Or, just have a seperate forum for betas like with the 3.0 hacks.

Thats silly.

A post count means nothing, nor does a join date, and who reads what they agree to anymore.

Again, we are at the same square.

[trackpads]

Thats silly.

A post count means nothing, nor does a join date, and who reads what they agree to anymore.

Again, we are at the same square.

It worked with the 3.0 hacks right?

I would rather try something than nothing.

[Borgs8472]

Perhaps add Amy Khar's quiz hack with a bunch of vb.org questions on it, only when you answer a decent % correctly do you get access to the beta group? :)

[stonyarc]

Thats silly.
A post count means nothing, nor does a join date, and who reads what they agree to anymore.
Again, we are at the same square.


As long as users understand that beta versions change somewhat faster and might contain bugs.

Maybe we should add a beta disclaimer if we release a modification in beta. I think this should also be made mandatory the check box doesn't seem to warn people enough.

Just to warn users of the potential issues in general.

However the release of betas tends to require more support. Not that I have a problem with that. But people should read previous posting before posting an issue (again).

[trackpads]

I am still working on the slapping hack so there is hope people :) :)

[Zachariah]

Beta forum would be nice for VB3.5

- The non-programer (ie: end-user) will not expect "perfect product".
- The beta forum usaly attracts "helpers" that can help with bugz and ideas.
- R&D and many minds on a project move the beta hacks into production.
- The beta's are open to all - Look above @ R&D.

Another Idea would be to allow users that create their own "thread" to DEL and/or option to move to the Beta forum. (vs. tell a forum Mod of a problem . )

[Xplorer4x4]

In most cases I would agree ,Zachery, that post count does not matter, but I think in this case the more posts you have, generally means more activity here which can be interpeted as experience to some extent. With my activity levels I am far from being a coder(speaking of which how do you earn coder status?) but I have defenitley learned alot.

Personally I like the quiz idea. It should be some what lienant though.

[Chris M]

There is no way, without using something like someone earlier suggested, a quizzing hack, to determine who is and who is not experienced enough...

Honestly - With the new hack database, perhaps we can sort out some more notified warning than the "Is in Beta Stage" line and checkbox in the first post :)

Chris

[Marco van Herwaarden]

It also depends why you call it a beta. Is it because you don't know if your code is buggy, or because you want input in the functionality or the user interface.

[The Geek]

As anoying as it can be it - the problem sounds more like one surrounding just being respectful enough and understanding enough to read what the author has written in their first post and the subsequent pages.

I mean, where do you draw the line? Quiz them on the contents of the readme?




....hmmmm. Damn thats a mighty fine idea! :devious:

Get to it as soon as your slap hack :)

[trackpads]

I have to apologize to all, my wife has suddenly decided to take over development of the Slap Hack. I just learned this when she tested the RC out on me :)

[Paul M]

The only problem atm is that it's not very obvious that a hack is beta, just one little tick box that anyone can miss ......

[The Geek]

I have to apologize to all, my wife has suddenly decided to take over development of the Slap Hack. I just learned this when she tested the RC out on me :)

:laugh: heck my wife is on version 23.6. I'm beginning to think its open source :nervous:

[Marco van Herwaarden]

heck my wife is on version 23.6. I'm beginning to think its open source
Your wife is open source? Wow you must be a frustrated guy. Now i understand why you spend all day behind your keyboard coding. :D :D

[The Geek]

Damn, I let the cat out of the bag. Now ill never get her sold! :o

(erm. Thank god she doesnt read this site. She would try out version 24 on me)

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Maybe i could trade you yours for mine. :D

[The Geek]

I dont think the license covers trade ins :)

Plus - any other wife would unleash her slap hack on me a lot more than Mrs. Geek does with the amount of time I spend looking at variables - those types of partners are just too far and few :)

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Well being Open Source, she probably got her own 'variables'. So no wonder she leave you alone. ;)



* MarcoH64 just got inspired by this thread and goes out to look for some nice new 'variables' for himself. :D Lol being an experienced vB user, i might even test some beta's

[yayvb]

Ok,

Not that I am a coder but am a pretty experienced user and I want to say this, Betas should be for other coders and exp. members only. Or by exception.

I am waiting on this hack and it is killing me to watch Danny have to re-re-re-re-re-explain what the heck a fricking beta is to a bunch of newbies, this thread is torturous! I think the hack would have been written by now if he wasnt stomping out fires created by people who shouldnt be using the code yet anyway!

Great Idea!!! NOT

I don't harrass any of the coders here, but yet because I'm not a coder you think that I shouldn't have access to them, along with the thousands of other users? LOL - Well for your information I'm sure most of the hack creators here don't create them for people like you, they create them for people who are in need of the hack regardless of if they can code. In fact, I see a vbulletin modification site being more useful to users who can't code rather than who can code. I imagine you think Jelsoft designed vbulletin only for experienced users like you. (I don't think so)

If there are too many people asking "dumb" questions, the coder has the option of not wasting his time responding to each of them in case you didn't know. Why don't you blame the author for making you wait longer, they're the ones who release it. If you're such an excellent coder why don't you make your own needed hacks instead of blaming non coders like myself for making you wait longer.

If you want a solution that works instead of making it against regulations for non technical users to use these hacks, why not make it common knowledge that questions will be answered on a limited basis, or not at all, during the beta phase?

I just put up 7 paid hack requests, I guess I should be flagged and have my viewing rights revoked because I must not be too experienced. I think you're asking for too much control. :disappointed:

[The Geek]

yayvb - I think he was just making a point that sometimes coders get bogged down answering questions that are either answered in posted or readme material or they start feature requesting the author to death.

Beta projects (unless otherwise mentioned) are not generally designed for a wide audience. They are usually designed for experienced users who can 'open up the hood' and fix something by themselves in a rut. They are put up so that other users can contribute with their feedback or even to help fix problems. Though non technical users are great with feature suggestions or reporting when something doesn't work (which are both valuable contributions) beta stages are tough to support to people who don't know vb, php and/or sql.

As far as a coder not responding to posts - of course that is their choice - but its akin to committing reputation suicide with a dull spoon on a site like this (in other words: not advisable).

[Guest190829]

I think a very obvious disclaimer should be placed in all beta threads. Such like the one I put on all my BETA modifications:

"This hack is in it's early BETA stages, and it should be used for DEBUGGING purposes only. "

I think it will be too difficult to determine who is "eligible" to use beta hacks.

[Borgs8472]

^ ^
quiz :p

[trackpads]

yayvb: Stop using the products of your website and pay attention. Look at the thread I posted in the beginning of this thread.

Geek: Open Source or 'malware' isnt that what marriage is about?? :)

-Jason

[MJM]

Perhaps some kinda Support FAQreation mod? ...

Select a post (that is to be the FAQ Answer)

- Make FAQ? Y/N

- Enter Title / Description

- Submit > FAQ is entered into (HAQ FAQ) page, which is linked from top post in thread.

- FAQ Management - ability to change sort order of FAQs

Just tossing around some ideas, and would also hope that folks with no coding experience, but who have suggestions that could improve a Beta, and have a vested interest that the hack works in practice and not just principle be not excluded from Betas.

~ Mark

[Chris M]

Perhaps some kinda Support FAQreation mod? ...

Select a post (that is to be the FAQ Answer)

- Make FAQ? Y/N

- Enter Title / Description

- Submit > FAQ is entered into (HAQ FAQ) page, which is linked from top post in thread.

- FAQ Management - ability to change sort order of FAQs

Just tossing around some ideas, and would also hope that folks with no coding experience, but who have suggestions that could improve a Beta, and have a vested interest that the hack works in practice and not just principle be not excluded from Betas.

~ Mark

That isn't a bad idea, but it's alot to code ;)

Chris

[GrendelKhan{TSU]

most of the time, i noticed if an author has to repeatedly explain what the hack is for (beta or not).... it a hint that maybe the first post explanation should be more detailed. plain and simple.

that's just what I noticed. it goes down significantly with very detailed and screenshot rich first posts.

and if there are repeat questions...the authors just referrs them back to the first post. (or other thread goers).

getting lost in a thread finding answers to questiosn already asked is a big issue... as such, I think MJM's post is great idea. for thread readers, authors, n00bs and experienced coders/mod users alike.

[Talisman]

When a hack is released in beta form you are going to confuse newcomers. They haven't been doing this long enough to grasp the basics yet. But they haven't been burned real bad either - yet - so they're going to venture in and try to install complex hacks and beta hacks. They really should hold off until they've been through some simple ones... but they really don't know that.

There's really only a couple of things the hack author can do to make this more clear -- warn inexperienced coders it's not a final release ... use good screenshots (as mentioned above) ... and keep updating the first and second post in the thread with the LATEST information and easy-to-find answers to those repeat questions they keep getting in the thread.

It's not just beginners who get lost in this. The rest of us get busy or we're too lazy. Alot of people just read the first 5 pages and the last 5 pages ONLY before scampering off to install it.

[Detomah]

In theory I can see exactly what your saying and why your saying it.

I think part of the problem is simply that a lot of users either don't see that it is a beta, or don't understand what a beta is.

However...

It is a nightmare at times, when you go to a thread for a hack beta or released and have to troll through the same question a hundred times, just to get a little bit of info, when if these people had simply bothered to look, the questions being repeatedly asked would have normally been answered numerous times. Made worse when you have some poor user with a genuine problem who posts his question and it ends up going completely ignored and unanswered as a result of it being lost in these multiple repeat questions.

Now this is where my question on this would be raised...

Is all of this the fault of the user in need of help or the developer for not making his initial post and hack instructions clear enough?

Anyone that's been a regular user over here for a fair period of time knows the way hacks are formatted, the way the initial hack post should be laid out and how hacks work, but how often do people actually make the instructions clear enough, actually include a update of what work and updates, fixes and what not have been done and include a clear enough set of instructions that anyone using vBulletin could understand. I like to see a coder include a difficulty rating in their initial post, it helps know how long and how hard the hack would be to install and get running properly, I think all coders should include one of these as standard, maybe there should be a tutorial "How to release a hack for everyone" and "How to make your hack instructions clear".

The way I look at it though... We have all been a newbie at some stage or another and just because we learn and move on and become more advanced, new newbies come along and have to go through our exact same experience. My experience as a coding newbie was seriously bad, I remember being repeatedly ignored and laughed at for not knowing stuff that some others did knew, when a little bit of simple guidance instead would have gone a lot further and would have helped me progress much faster and would have stopped me having to ask the same question repeatedly. Personally I think a lot of coders become really arrogent with time and experience and they think they are above everyone else and that everyone should automatically be to their standard of coding, or if not, they shouldn't bother and should stop using a computer immediately, that's certainly what it feels like reading through a lot of posts on this site put it that way. How is anyone going to learn and progress if nobody is prepared to assist anyone else?

Regarding seperating newbies from advanced coders and experienced users... I think that would be the worst possible move that could possibly be made, there is enough segregation as it is, without putting an even bigger devide up. Not that I think it would be possible anyway, a post count certainly doesn't give any kind of guauge as to how good your experience is. After all, someone with a huge post count may have that post count simply by needing to ask questions on every single hack, or at the same time it oculd be from a friendly coder who goes out their way to help everyone they possibly can. I think it is something that would be impossible to guage.

[The Geek]

you know what would be kind of cool and maybe not too hard to do?

Have an addon (kind of like the current tick boxes) that appears at the bottom of the first post as a 'quick links' to common questions/posts/etc... Only dont make it part of the collapsable box as many keep this collapsed (I do frequently).

Then again - maybe not. It may be a bit messy and it may be irrelevant with the new 'hack' db we have been hearing about for 6 months ;)

[Colejo]

Not that I am a coder but am a pretty experienced user and I want to say this, Betas should be for other coders and exp. members only. Or by exception.

I am waiting on this hack and it is killing me to watch Danny have to re-re-re-re-re-explain what the heck a fricking beta is to a bunch of newbies, this thread is torturous! I think the hack would have been written by now if he wasnt stomping out fires created by people who shouldnt be using the code yet anyway!

[vB 3.5.0 Beta 3123] Slap Newbie VB Members who dont know what Beta Versions are for.....

Yup, its in Beta :)

-Jason

This post comes across as snobbish and of you having a complex of thinking you are better than a Newbie. Putting down new people on a message board is a lowsy way to get new people to become active in threads. I haven't used vbulletin very long but I'm certainly to the point that I can figure out how to do most anything I need. Just like doing anything you are new at it takes a little time to get used to it and having someone that's done it longer try to look down upon you doesn't make it any easier.

[trackpads]

This post comes across as snobbish and of you having a complex of thinking you are better than a Newbie. Putting down new people on a message board is a lowsy way to get new people to become active in threads. I haven't used vbulletin very long but I'm certainly to the point that I can figure out how to do most anything I need. Just like doing anything you are new at it takes a little time to get used to it and having someone that's done it longer try to look down upon you doesn't make it any easier.

Not snobbish at all, fairly practical though. Read the thread link I posted above and tell me how much time you think was wasted on some of those nitwits?

Then call me a snaob.

[Colejo]

Not snobbish at all, fairly practical though. Read the thread link I posted above and tell me how much time you think was wasted on some of those nitwits?

Then call me a snaob.

Ok some of them were bad but I don't think it can all be attributed to them being newbies.

[Lea Verou]

OMG trackpads I just read the thread and I'm furious!!!
Gosh, how some people are like that???
Poor Danny, if I was in his shoes I would've lost my temper from the first posts... :(

[Wayne Luke]

In my opinion if you want your betas to be for experienced users only then you need to have a closed beta process where you pick who you give it to. Plain and simple.

If you post it here, then it is free game to all members.

[Brad]

In my opinion if you want your betas to be for experienced users only then you need to have a closed beta process where you pick who you give it to. Plain and simple.

If you post it here, then it is free game to all members.

I agree with Wayne, but I do understand the need for public betas aswell. Now that we use a checkbox to seperate them from normal hacks it is harder to tell them apart right off.

I don't see a problem with a small message under the thread title noting the fact that it's a beta version. I'll put it on the to do list. :)

[darnoldy]

I do understand the need for public betas as well.I think that part of the problem is that some people are used to the public betas put out by Jelsoft, Adobe and Microsoft (who calls theirs "release versions"), and don't realize that the "betas" here are often much closer to alpha releases than they are to FC releases.

I don't think it would be out of line to automatically put some sort of prominent warning label across the top of threads on beta software. I suspect that such a thing could be accomplished with a template conditional.

--don

[Andreas]

Main problem with Betas (closed or public): Almost nobody does test them and does report bugs, they only complain that there are bugs (without telling which ones).

[TygerTyger]

I think quite simply a subsection for public betas will be your best bet. There's no fair way - or at least, fair and managable way - to determine who should and shouldn't have access to a beta. A beta subsection with a bigass THIS IS A BETA and THIS IS WHAT A BETA MEANS faq-style quick explanation at the header of every hack thread, with the mod explanation/instructions etc below it, will serve you best I reckon.

The fact of the matter is that the problem isn't the mods, or the authors, or the forum. It's the people who don't bother reading, are too inexperienced or short-tempered or lazy or all of the above. Make it clear, give them fair warning and if they still don't make an effort, they earn what they get. Sounds harsh, but that's just the nature of forums. The benefits will be there for those who want them as well.

[The Geek]

I agree with Tyger (though the discussion will be moot with a new hack DB).

The old 3.0x forum for beta's seemed to be a good 'Ye pass here at ye own peril' barrier. Sure it wasnt perfect - but it was a bit easier to identify.

It was also a cool place to go if you wanted to spend some time helping an author trouble shoot some work they are doing.

Just a thought.

[stonyarc]

I think quite simply a subsection for public betas will be your best bet. There's no fair way - or at least, fair and managable way - to determine who should and shouldn't have access to a beta. A beta subsection with a bigass THIS IS A BETA and THIS IS WHAT A BETA MEANS faq-style quick explanation at the header of every hack thread, with the mod explanation/instructions etc below it, will serve you best I reckon.

The fact of the matter is that the problem isn't the mods, or the authors, or the forum. It's the people who don't bother reading, are too inexperienced or short-tempered or lazy or all of the above. Make it clear, give them fair warning and if they still don't make an effort, they earn what they get. Sounds harsh, but that's just the nature of forums. The benefits will be there for those who want them as well.

Tyger is right.
Just on the googlemap I got some great responses and some nice feature suggestions from people that have bothered to read what's it about, how it works and what are the known issues (that's why it's a beta).

But some people don't read. If if it says "to fix issues xxxx download latest version". It sometimes frustrating but it's for them and for ourselves we make it. The least they could do is use the page search.

The faq seems like a good idea. Why not make a basic documentation package mandatory with just the core elements in it:

- how to install
- how to configure
- how to uninstall
- known issues
- roadmap
- version history
- tips & tricks

That should avoid the repeating questions and make it a standard additional feature for all modifications.

[Paul M]

Perhaps the first problem is to define what a "beta" version is. No disrespect to Danny, but given the number of errors that seemed to be in the first versions, they were not what I would call beta versions. :)

[TygerTyger]

I've always defined it thus:

Alpha: Works, sort of.
Beta: Works, mostly.
Final: Works!

Betas are testing versions after all. If they work perfectly they may as well not be betas.

[slank]

Main problem with Betas (closed or public): Almost nobody does test them and does report bugs, they only complain that there are bugs (without telling which ones).

is true alot of people don't contribut or tell of the bugs but just wnt the code cuse they can't wait.

As a programmer myself i always try to include every possible bug and deciption of when and where it appeared and how i managed to come across it, not everyone is like that though, they want a quick fix and fast.

i don't know what else to say, but i am a programmer who is deigned to test and break programs in as many ways as possible. So i am used to constantly giving the coding errors and feedback on the problem, some people just either don't care or have no clue - and then flame the coder for the problems (this is only my opinion of course).

The problem as i see it is people do not read enough

[trackpads]

The problem as i see it is people do not read enough


That statement is true in a lot of thing in life. ;)

[stonyarc]

is true alot of people don't contribut or tell of the bugs but just wnt the code cuse they can't wait.

As a programmer myself i always try to include every possible bug and deciption of when and where it appeared and how i managed to come across it, not everyone is like that though, they want a quick fix and fast.

i don't know what else to say, but i am a programmer who is deigned to test and break programs in as many ways as possible. So i am used to constantly giving the coding errors and feedback on the problem, some people just either don't care or have no clue - and then flame the coder for the problems (this is only my opinion of course).

The problem as i see it is people do not read enough

It's even worse. It seems like you sometimes have to beg to post a link so you can see the problem for yourself.
Sometimes you only get "it doesn't work" and the link in their profile goes to somewhere exotic.

What if the beta process is more formalized:
Include a bug report if you find something in a beta
- link:
- description:
- config:

So at least you would have something to start from and it's a lot easier to add to the manual/roadmap/faq

[Borgs8472]

^ ^
/me agrees!

[Paul M]

It would be handy if vb.org had a bug tracking system linked to hacks.