Poll: Should .org have a section for paid add-ons?

[MPDev]

An informal poll, of course...

[OllieRocks]

An informal poll, of course...

No pls

[Zachariah]

naaa, make your own site to sell stuff.

[BamaStangGuy]

yes they should

[Borgs8472]

Yes please, or else rebrand itself as the ultimate vb resource for free hacks.

I'd like a good level of quality control in said forum of course, with people trying to sell free hacks dealt with severly, also people who release the paid hacks for free (without significant change obviously) being dealt with severly.

[The Geek]

wow - thats a pretty black and white poll :)

Of course Im all for an area of .org where we can view sites selling scripts. If you dont like it, you dont have to go there however wouldnt it come in handy?

Regardless - I think most users arent too bothered either way. Guess we shall see :)

[trackpads]

I say yes, it would be easier than going off site to one of a dozen or so sites just to find a good hack. Liek a directory here of something.

Charge a $1 or something for a small hack etc. Micropayments, that is 1/5 of a Mcd's extra value meal to me but could encourage a good coder more than a thank you ever could.

Nothing says "I love you" like money.... :)

[Feckie (Roger)]

Only if they supply a full (not beta) scaled down free version

[Chris M]

Paid add-ons in what respect? Advertising and links to them, or hosting them here?

If the latter, I will be totally against it, as if a coder goes MIA (it has happened before so don't think it may never again) it will be down to the staff to fix security issues and bugs with it...

And if the hack has a security flaw inherant in it and the coder isn't MIA, we'll have to get a fix sorted out and it's extra hassle we don't need - If you want to have paid add-ons hosted I won't support that...

If you can clear that up for me before I decide to vote MPDev:)

Chris

[Talisman]

Oh, that's lovely. You know damn well this doesn't give us a representative indication from which to decide what's best for everyone here. A straight numbers poll for a question like this?

On one side there's a group of very experienced, very active, and very HIGHLY motivated bunch of coders who all want to sell things here to make money. You think that group isn't going to work hard to convince people this is NOT about financial gain for themselves? Those are some of the most active participating people here so, of course, they're going to win a poll in terms of sheer numbers.

The people here who are going to be affected the most by this decision are not long-time, experienced, active participants who post their thoughts and opinions on a regular basis. They don't influence what other people think all the time. And a significant percentage of those people are simply too intimidated by all this and by the other very vocal members here. They're not sure which side is really looking out for THEM and their interests ... they're not actively monitoring a debate like this. There's no way they're going to have the same voice in this, so how are they going to be represented fairly in a straight numbers poll?

[tamarian]

I'd say no. I would like to say yes, provided some clear rules are set and respected, but since the rules would complicate things, it's best to let the commercial add-on developers manage their own hacks. It's very much a case of a few bad apples ruining it for the rest.

With the increasing tendancy toward encoded scripts, embedded checks, information sending, "home calls", and conflcting privacy policies, license keys checking, and the eventual disputes between hackers and customers, vb.org staff may find themselves in the middle, even when they don't have access to the developers records or even the code, to verify who's right, or enforce anything. It could get real ugly, real soon.

[The Geek]

Talisman, I don't think anyone is looking at this as some sort of definitive survey however the coders here are far outweighed by those that do not contribute to the community and are far more likely to become over run by those that are worried of somehow mysteriously losing their bottomless well of free hacks. Which of course is silly to even think.

If it were my choice, I would offer more flexibility in the poll and also request that only contributors get to cast a vote. Not because being a contributor makes you special - but because at least it would be those giving thier time and support to the community that could make a final decision.

Regardless - its only a poll and I don't think anyone in either camp should get too giddy over the results.

For what its worth - I dont think it should be seen as 'depends on the particulars'. I think if Jelsoft gets around to deciding that they will support a concept of supplying information to their customers on commercial systems - then the details can be worked out then.

Just my 2 cents ;)

[trackpads]

Oh, that's lovely. You know damn well this doesn't give us a representative indication from which to decide what's best for everyone here. A straight numbers poll for a question like this?

On one side there's a group of very experienced, very active, and very HIGHLY motivated bunch of coders who all want to sell things here to make money. You think that group isn't going to work hard to convince people this is NOT about financial gain for themselves? Those are some of the most active participating people here so, of course, they're going to win a poll in terms of sheer numbers.

The people here who are going to be affected the most by this decision are not long-time, experienced, active participants who post their thoughts and opinions on a regular basis. They don't influence what other people think all the time. And a significant percentage of those people are simply too intimidated by all this and by the other very vocal members here. They're not sure which side is really looking out for THEM and their interests ... they're not actively monitoring a debate like this. There's no way they're going to have the same voice in this, so how are they going to be represented fairly in a straight numbers poll?

So your saying that, like our democracy, if you dont show up to vote its not your fault if you lose?......

Besides, how can you pay $150++ for something and expect everything else to be free??

[derekivey]

No, I think all the hacks here should be free. If they want to sell their hacks they can sell them on their website.

[The Geek]

See, here is another problem with the poll: It makes people inadvertantly think .org should be set up to sell commercial work.
I dont think thats what MPdev was getting at - I think he was trying to gauge if people were interested in .org offering information on commercial systems.

I can see that .org hosting and selling them would be a freaking nightmare. Providing information (ie a script directory) however would be handy.

Anyhoo - just another 2 cents. Boy this piggie banks getting full :)

[EasyTarget]

yeah I'm not voting for the pure vagueness in the poll. I mean I could vote yes, then it turns out to be something I would be totally against. I wouldn't mind paid hacks provided it was conducted in the right manner. I don't really want a link directory though because I feel it would be driving users/customers elsewhere outside of .org and .org would just become the ultimate vb link resource.

[MPDev]

Paid add-ons in what respect? Advertising and links to them, or hosting them here?

I would not host them here since there is an eCommerce element to purchase the code; but what I think would be reasonable would be a "directory" where I could research what options are available (and check comments by other users) where items are linked to the developers website. Nor would I expect to see support handled on this site.

If I were looking to add functionality to my website, it would be nice if the "ultimate resource" gave me the ability to research all of my options and not just the "free" ones. As a website operator who does have money to spend, I do not mind paying for Modifications and have even paid for mods that were "free" when I felt it was justified.

[trackpads]

I think what your saying is that you dont want a mad rush for everything to go paid, I understand that. I think we need to find an example and hold it up. The MS one is pretty good, and if bill gates loves then it should be great for everyone :) :)

[EasyTarget]

it would be nice if the "ultimate resource" gave me the ability to research all of my options and not just the "free" ones.
if you search I don't think you'll find many other options besides what is here at vb.org, so the free ones are pretty much all of your options. Why create a directory listing which will just increase the power of other/competition sites when .org has the market right now?

imo it would be better for .org to offer paid hacks here but it would be easier/less time-consuming to just link to other sites. (even though the way I see it that would just take away from them.. I mean if this is the 'ultimate resourse' why would they need to send people to other sites?)

[MPDev]

if you search I don't think you'll find many other options besides what is here at vb.org, so the free ones are pretty much all of your options

Actually there are quite a few products that integrate with vBulletin outside of what you will find here. Not to mention more than a few who code styles for a fee - when I wanted to find styles to purchase for my site vbulletin.org was useless in my search. The first place I purchased style from sucked, the second place was much nicer. Had I the benefit of the community's experience I may not have wasted my money on the first place.

[Jenta]

Definate no because Jelsoft would be a target for unhappy customers. Keep that stuff on your own sites and link to them in your signatures or your free hacks,

[Blaine0002]

seems like a good idea to me :)

[EasyTarget]

Actually there are quite a few products that integrate with vBulletin outside of what you will find here.links? I'm looking for things coded specifically for vbulletin, not something that the user has to modify to get to work.

[Paul M]

I voted no, this site is for FOC hacks.

[eXtremeTim]

Only if they supply a full (not beta) scaled down free version

Umm its impossible to make scaled down versions of everything.

[smacklan]

I voted no and my site is all about selling. I think it would become too difficult to maintain a list and not have some person/persons feel it were slanted to one product over another is one thing. The other is if a person who comes to this site is of reasonable intelligence a simple search turns up many posts on just about any hack or product, paid or FOC. I think this site needs to remain focused on the core vb product...now ya'll be sure and come visit me when you need a skin ;) :p

[Lizard King]

Jellsoft must prepare a paid vbulletin modification , style section. It might be under vb.org or vb.com but there must be a resource directory which we can rate.

[MJM]

In principle I'm in favor of promoting hack contributors, but I will vote undecided because ...

1) This poll is too basic.
What is needed first is a survey:
- Opinions and suggestions provided in the feedback thread should be compiled into a list of possible avenues for self promotion, from signature use and onwards.
- Each survey entry should provide multiple choices: Yes/No/Undecided. (Maybe)
- Multiple survey options need to be selectable, because the solution may be a combination of scenarios.

After the survey has been hashed out and then evaluated, if so desired a Yes/No/Undecided Poll could be conducted for a final consensus.
---------------

2) I would first like to see what vB.com is up to regarding plugins / free and/or paid.
I am hoping that when vB.com's first plugin comes out that they will explain how and what directions the company will be using plugins for.
I am also hoping that they will offer further means of supporting vB.org and the coding community who have freely contributed to the extended use of this product.

At this time, this discussion is imperative, because sooner probably rather then later vB.com/vB.org will be be bringing out the stone chisels ... er making announcements that will make it clearer as to their own intentions and use of plugins, and policy toward support of other plugin providers free or paid.

~ Mark

[MPDev]

I think its important not to get caught up in the details because that's not what this is about; because this isn't about implementing such a thing, its just a gauge of the interest.

If you think there is a place, even if limited in some form, then you can vote YES. If you don't see any condition in which a paid addon should be discussed here, then vote NO. There is no need to make this any more complicated.

[owenweb]

yes they should

[Detomah]

I'm seriously torn on this.

While In one hand I don't personally mind paying for a good script that will add value to my website.

At the same time I'm pretty sure that if people see paid hacks as a generally acceptable all around thing to do and as pretty much the norm, it would potentially kill what vbulletin.org and free coding stands for and a lot of people would jump on the bandwagon and start charging and it would become even more of a nightmare than it already is trying to get help out of anyone, without giving out cash to do it. Which when you put the cash element in it basically takes all the passion away and basically means that those with lots of money get everything they want and the rest of us struggle, no matter if it is for a good cause or not.

I've actually voted yes as it would be nice to see what is available without having to troll the net looking for it, but I would like to see it very much limited to scripts that obviously require a huge amount of time and effort and work and not just any old script that could be knocked out by anyone with a bit of patience.

My idea of coding is that it gives me a buzz when I get a bit of code to produce a functioning neat looking end product, I do that because I enjoy it. Take away the fun element and make it seem like work and it would ruin it for me and the chances are i'd simply stop helping others where I can and would concentrate just on me ~ (although it seems that a heck of a lot of people have that selfish attitude anyway).

To me the internet is supposed to be a place for anyone and everyone, I think over the last 10yrs people have gradually lost sight of that though and now it has basically become a cash generating machine for the greedy, where cash rules all, sad really, I remember a time on the net when people did something simply because it could be useful to someone else.

I think vBulletin is getting dangerously close to becoming elitist and with that is in danger of becoming the untouchable posh snob of the forum world, where people will start using the competition instead, because they are free and have nigh on the same range of free add-ons too. I mean after all, most hacks that have found their way to vBulletin, have at some stage or another been publically released for free with phpnuke or phpbb or what not.

[soniceffect]

voted no ... I think this is against what vb.org is about

[Chris M]

owenweb,

You are currently showing up as unlicensed. To be able to download hacks and/or receive support here at vBulletin.org, we ask you to please click here (http://members.vbulletin.com/membersupport_priority.php) (vB-germany users click here (http://members.vbulletin-germany.com/membersupport_priority.php)) and enter your email address, to show us that you are licensed.

You will need to use your customer number and password (which will be in the email you got when you paid for your license) to access that page. Please note that your email is case sensitive. The update of your account may take up to one hour.

Thank you.

[MPDev]

Thank you everyone for participating in the poll; I think the results speak for themselves and maybe the powers that be will take them into consideration.

[Chris M]

2 days is not a conclusive amount of time for everyone to vote - Currently I see 38 yes, 34 no, and 1 undecided...

That's pretty close in just 2 days - Lets leave it for a week and see how it changes...

Chris

[MPDev]

Sure, leave it up for a month.

Although I do think that it is representative of the people who were actively participating/watching the Angry thread.

[Paul M]

Thank you everyone for participating in the poll; I think the results speak for themselves and maybe the powers that be will take them into consideration.Speak for themselves after two days - I think not. You only have to look at how the HOTM poll can vary over a week or two. This needs to be active for a month at least. :)

[Andreas]

Almost 50:50 ... doesn't mean much IMHO.

[MPDev]

I guess you can read the results however you choose. Everyone probably has a different interpertation of what constitutes a "meaningful result" - 50% not enough for you to consider a feature "useful" to have, maybe you need 80% buy-in or maybe you see value if only 20% do?

I'm curious, when you add a feature to vBulletin does the percentage of people it will benefit factor in? If 50% "doesn't mean much", do you not add a feature that would only benefit half of your users?

Taken in reverse, at what point do you remove the vB2 section? When 50% of the people are no longer using it? 30%? 20%?

[The Geek]

What? When we were constantly told that only a sliver minority wanted information on commercial systems? Like I said in the other thread - regardless of how long its left up - there a good chunk of active users have voiced that they want it!

As far as HOTM: After about 2 weeks (tops) thats pretty much set and doesn't garnish a plethora of activity.

Anyooo, lets say that the poll ends up 75/25 in favor of not wanting any information and commercial systems. You will ignore the 25%? What if the 90% of the 25% are the contributors to the site? You will still ignore?

I think that would be a shame. Regardless of the outcome, at least its been made apparent that there is a larger than a sliver minority that want the information.

Just my 2 logs to throw on the fire ;)

[Andreas]

50:50 doesn't mean much, not 50% doesn't mean much :)
When I looked at the results, it was exactly 1 vote difference, which in my opinion isn't a clear result.

[MPDev]

I would suggest that even 40% of the members supporting the benefit would be significant in itself. Where you might be hung up on the percentages, I'm simply looking to gauge interest and anything above 20% is probably worthy of inclusion for no other reason than it gives people a choice.

[Snake]

Yeah sure, why not?

[jward]

If everyone is serious about getting feedback from vb.org members via this poll, why not display it on the vbulletin.org homepage in a prominent position? My recommendation is that the moderating team should consider this option as a method of getting further input, not to ultimately make a decision at this stage. However, it will give us all a better idea of how the members here can be better served (from their own perspective).

[KW802]

The funny thing about polls... they can easily be twisted to support any arguement. Let's say that the "Yes" vote gets the most responses.... if the vB.org staff were behind the idea then they'd come out saying "See, the people have spoken!" but if the vB.org staff were against the idea then they'd come out saying "Well, it doesn't matter because not everybody voted" or "Only the people who wanted to see talks/ads of commercial hacks" voted or some other spin. And, of course, the flip side is true... if the "No" vote gets the most responses then the people wanting to see commercial hacks here would be able to spin it the same way.

Democracy at work, ain't it a killer? There's a reason why the US is a republic. ;)

[michaelbenson]

I dont believe that there should be any section for paid addons. And for those who are demanding a change in the site slogan; this is advertising, nothing has to be correct down the finite details. Besides this is more of a partial, opiniated statement. Anyways to the subject in hand ... a section for paid modifications ... hmm i myself am a continual user of commerical such as vB SEO, v3 Arcade, GARS but what i prefer is how they appear on their own forums and dont have their support topics overuining this forum instead. Although i like the idea of paid modifications not being acknowledged perhaps it might be appropiate for there to be a topic outlet for new paid modifications to be posted and updated to a particular list. Or a list of commerical websites such as vB Advanced, The Geek, vB SEO to be submitted instead of their individual modifications offered?

[Regs]

I think one of the misconceptions running rampant here is that some think a new "forum" would house this stuff and that vB.org would have an area for businesses to provide support.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought what was being suggested was a directory of some sort. Don't get into fitting a square peg into a round hole - use a directory type listing script - not vBulletin itself.

As for the poll itself being significant or not - obviously considering the sample size, it is not in the strictest sense of the term. But I believe it was set-up to test Boofo's assertion (and maybe others) that not too many want to see this happen. In that sense, so far, the result is significant.

[AWS]

Yes sir they should be allowed. I know how much time it takes and how your head can swin in code when working on a project not to mention the bug fixing and support that has to be given after the product is complete. Couple that with the ungrateful people that cry and complain when they run into problems and I can't see why anyone releases anything for free.
While I haven't released any mods I have a few mods that are unique to my forums and most of them would be of no use to anyone else because they are tailored to the needs of my communities. I did think about releasing one of them after getting a few PM asking for it, but, after seeing what goes on in the support threads I decided it wasn't worth it.
If I was ever to finish the static archive hack I started last year it would be a paid for addon. I can deal with the complaining when I'm getting paid. I can't when I donate my resources and time.

Oh, BTW, I accidently voted no. FTR, I am in favor of it so add one more yes and subtract a no.

[Neutral Singh]

Mere "85" votes from "1,10,000" registered members... a very good yardstick to hit across the point!! :rolleyes:

[MR-2ZZ]

Yes. I think it should. These programmers work hard and I am willing to pay for good stuff, as long as a good demo is provided.

[tnguy3n]

No for me. I don't see why vb.org should turn into a commercial site, selling member's products and stuffs. I prefer it the way it is.

[Adrian Schneider]

No for me. I don't see why vb.org should turn into a commercial site, selling member's products and stuffs. I prefer it the way it is.

Same here.

[eXtremeTim]

Lets see vb.org is supposed to be the ulitmate vbulletin resource. Alot of us have some really decent commercial modifications that people are looking for but may never find becuase there is not a centralized location for these things.

[mfizzel]

No, I think all the hacks here should be free. If they want to sell their hacks they can sell them on their website.

Exactly.

[Sean S]

I said no because there is a "service request" forum here which gives anyone that is interested to pay for a custom/hack mod the ability to request for one. I simply see this as a place where those that are experienced/intermidiate and enjoy what they do, sharing some of their knowledge and mods with the rest of the community. Tell you the truth no one is forcing anyone here to create hacks/mods for free, the author can choose to make the mod a commericial mod if he/she chooses to and create a website for it, and the community should respect that.

However, to support those sites, I don't mind seeing vbulletin.org offering banner advertisement to those websites at a certain cost.

But again this poll leaves very little room to discuss the two sides, as both have their own advantages and disadvantages.

[MRGTB]

I vote: NO

For a very simple reason, if you start to get coders here advertising there hacks for sale rather than for FREE. More and more free coders here will start to look at this and think (why should I can carry on doing it for free when "Mr X" is now selling his hacks for cash). This will lead to a great reduction in FREE scripts as more and more coders start to think the same way. Making money out of a site that they don't own or have to pay money to keep online.

If I coder wants cash for his scripts - create his own site for it.

I also believe that vBulletin.com would suffer in loss sales overall. How many people here choose vBulletin instead of IPB mainly because of the many FREE scripts on offer at vB.org as a big deciding factor. Take this away and many people will no longer see this site as a part of there decision making to buy vB over another board anymore, which could very well lead to a reduction in vB sales due to vB.org change in policy.

[Paul M]

Lets see vb.org is supposed to be the ulitmate vbulletin resource. The ultimate free vbulletin resource. ;)

[The Geek]

The ultimate free vbulletin resource. ;)

Thats not what I see :cheeky:

Anyhoo - its nots like suddenly .org would start charging users. Heck, those that are so against a commerical scripts information area can ignore it! So whats the big fuss? (thats rhetorical BTW :D )

[soniceffect]

103 voters ... I recon this should be mailed, so`s people know the post is here. Some people won`t have even seen the thread. Maybe people who have no need for anymore modification at the present and therefore do not visit at the moment. Would give more of an overall picture if everyone knows. And people can`t say they havent had the chance to vote then either..

Come on admin, mail the point and ask people to vote

[Andrew]

I think there should be some sort of a directory available for paid modifications - As of right now it's very difficult to locate any if not all of them unless you know specifically what you are look for. For instance I stumbled across The Geek's website last week and discoverd GeekMart which was the type of script I had been trying to locate for a long while. However, I do feel there should be a fee for businesses/coders to take part in the listing. Not only would that help to cover the cost of additional bandwidth usage, but it would also keep some of the less dedicated coders from switching over (Specifically coders with tiny hacks that just want to make a couple extra bucks - Odds are if there's a fee to become listed they'll think twice about the idea.)

[KW802]

I think there should be some sort of a directory available for paid modifications .... I do feel there should be a fee for businesses/coders to take part in the listing. ... Ditto, 100%. :)

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Come on admin, mail the point and ask people to vote
vB.org never send out unrequested mails.

[Paul M]

He just requested it ;)

[MR-2ZZ]

I've bought from Extremepixels and thevbgeek, and I think it was worth every penny. Especially extremepixels!

[Andreas]

Fine. I don't think it would be a problem for an admin to send him an email then ;)

[Alteran Ancient]

Um.... No! We paid enough for vB in the first place. If anything like this, there could be an area set to advertise the (Corporate) mods that you need to buy, but it's not a good idea to encourage everyone else to make a profit.

[derekivey]

Anyways, why can't someone just make a new site for the paid addons and hacks? Why does it need to be at vBorg???

[Andreas]

@derekivy
There are such sites already. Do you know them?

[EasyTarget]

what are they kirby?
is there anything that's vb specific?

[yayvb]

I can go either way. I think it would be an incentive for people to spend more time making great hacks that are useful to all of us. On the other hand, I imagine it will be the beginning of the end for free hacks.

[Wayne Luke]

On the other hand, I imagine it will be the beginning of the end for free hacks.

Just like Open Source software is the beginning of the end for Commercial Software right?

[stonyarc]

Most of us make these modifications in their spare time. If you would launch it commercially a whole other type of support commitments are required.

Now support is a question of goodwill.

however vb.org could benefit from revenue by hosting and validating modifications that are commercial.

vb.org could become a trademark for good commercial and free mods. With a testing procedure in place, just sign of on the mods that have "approved by" which of course adds to the value of both the mod and the site.

[Mythotical]

vb.org is owned by vb.com meaning any trademark they have would reflect back to vb.com and not just good commercial and free mods as vb.com doesn't want that, instead they want vbulletin to be the trademark. That is what I get from alot of things anyways.

[eXtremeTim]

I can go either way. I think it would be an incentive for people to spend more time making great hacks that are useful to all of us. On the other hand, I imagine it will be the beginning of the end for free hacks.

Free hacks will never die. Many of us that are working on commercial scripts still release free hacks. I am planning my new talkerbot v3 to be free of charge but have a subscription you can buy to gain access to the aiml sharing directory (mainly becuase of the sheer amt of bandwith it will consume).

The aiml share database will be a collection of custom made aiml files and ones submitted to us from the internet. So it will be like a single distrobution place for aiml files. The hack will have a nice integration into the database on my site if you purchase the small subscription and then you can install stuff in real time and even keep track of which bots know which files. ;)

[soniceffect]

Anyways, why can't someone just make a new site for the paid addons and hacks? Why does it need to be at vBorg???

I agree entirely with this ... VB.org has built up it`s excellent reputation and member base for VB.org, not for another site. If people want to promote premium hacks, why not promote it on there own forum rather than using the power of VB.org to do so.

Reason is simple, because VB.org is the best place to advertise. And why?? because it has been for so long the best resource for free addons/hacks etc for vbulletin. This site aint built it`s reputation around advertisement of premium hacks, in fact it`s built it`s reputation more through dissallowing them.

Just my opinion.

[mfizzel]

The problem is, if it's allowed to plug commercial scripts here, more and more people will be inclined to release free hacks merely to plug their paid hacks and not for the reason of actually releasing something to help the community.

More and more hacks are turning into LITE versions with stripped down features to get people to purchase PRO versions.

Then there's vBSEO who used this forum and used the members of this forum to polish their commercial script. Where's the lite version? lol, it'll never happen. The only 'free' hacks they've released is to gain exposure for their commercial script.

Free hacks will never die. Many of us that are working on commercial scripts still release free hacks. I am planning my new talkerbot v3 to be free of charge but have a subscription you can buy to gain access to the aiml sharing directory (mainly becuase of the sheer amt of bandwith it will consume).

The aiml share database will be a collection of custom made aiml files and ones submitted to us from the internet. So it will be like a single distrobution place for aiml files. The hack will have a nice integration into the database on my site if you purchase the small subscription and then you can install stuff in real time and even keep track of which bots know which files. ;)

[akanevsky]

Yes, there def. should be a paid addons section.

[SCRIPT3R]

i voted NO... would vote yes, ONLY if said area came with immediate (within 24hr) dedicated tech support.

[Revan]

90% of the people who voted No ignores/is ignorant to the fact that it was not the purpose of this poll to decide whether or not vBorg should install a Shopping Cart addon and start going all Amazon.com on you all. This, I find slightly annoying.

I voted Yes, because I would very much like to see such a section. Not only will it help users looking for paid hacks, but it will help boost vBorg's status as the ultimate vB resource.
As for the argument that more and more will be releasing paid hacks, then think of it this way: Shi'ite hack = Shi'ite support = no purchases.
Personally Id not want to go paid with my RPG due to the fact that this automatically means pressure. If you pay, you expect frequent updates and less bugs from the start.
With going paid, I don't have to /wrist just because the upgrade has a bug that scorned 2 beta testers, I just have to fix it before it goes final.
Then again, money is a good motivation for getting stuff done. So yeah, its just choosing the greater evil.

Ok Im sure I didnt get my point across at all and I probs made no sense, but Im so fkn tired my eyebrows start tickling in my nostrils, so Ill see if I can dechipher this babble tomorrow.

[Unexplained.tv]

I don't feel that VB.org should be for paid hacks, but I also agree that a new site would be ok and should handle this. Such as VBPaid.com or such domain, this would be a sister site to vbulletin.org.

[The Geek]

Yes, it appears that most taking part in the poll have either not read this thread or the angry orgers thread and are therefore voting based on some assumption that .org would suddenly become a selling and support centre for commercial scripts.

Alas, the longer the poll continues, the more people are going to be misunderstanding the point.

[MJM]

As an undecided minority... I think 'Undecided' would have garnered more votes had it been called - Maybe which is more positive then Undecided - ie can't make up my mind :confused:

Notable quotes ...
Chris M wrote - https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=825077&postcount=11

"Paid hack section" implies a forum dedicated to the release of paid hacks - Paid hack directory implies a list of sites with paid modifications

----------

amykhar wrote - https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=822987&postcount=31

Coding is easy. Supporting mods is darn hard work.

[skizzy203]

What I don't want to see is the value of this community working together on projects being taken advantage of for the commercial gain of few.

I think there should be a vbadvanced style directory listing of commercial scripts where users can comment on their experiences with the various available commercial products but I think that in order to be included in that directory, a commercial script must first be "deemed" or "approved" by moderator poll as commercial with regards to the following aspects: Does the script have it's own site? Do they offer support?

Has the community contributed to the development of this script in anyway.... here is the kicker. Do not let overnight commercial entity's steal everyone's collaborative efforts for their own financial gains. This will discourage developers from posting their code at all which would really suck for the prosperity of the community as a whole. This site is the research and development lab of many of the coders with the commercial scripts that you now find. As for the directory, I agree it should be paid inclusion as an incentive to help benefit and encourage the .org staff provide better resources for us all and help to discourage the less significant modifications from going commercial.

Now what is to be done about a script that has all the makings of a commercial script but was brewed here in the .org R&D lab? Aren't the original feedback contributors and bug fixers just as entitled to some of those revenue dollars as the person that decides to go commercial with the script? regardless of whether they started the release or not?

- In the end, enforcing requirements and setting professional standards for the commercial crossover will help to keep everyone that currently releases for free from jumping on that commercial band wagon, but when you think about it, there isn't really anything wrong with the "commercial bandwagon". I would rather pay for the support of great hacks than get frustrated with unsupported free ones. If a coder is willing to offer support, they should justly have a means to be compensated for their time and offered the option to advertise that obligation that they are willing to make to this community here.

Just a few more charcoals under the fire...

sKiz

[---MAD---]

no no no NO!
This will make coders very greedy and never make stuff for free. The forum is great because most the stuff is free and avalibable as long as you have vbulletin member area confimation!

[Princeton]

A commercial scripts section here in vb.org...
Wrong direction - I could imagine all the little "commercial scripts" that will be added.
Next thing you know we will see individual styles (for sale) added to the section.

All that is needed is a directory for business professionals to list their "business".

I'd be happy with that alone.

[Andrew]

What I don't understand is how everyone can honestly think that adding another official site dedicated to commercial scripts would solve anything. I think coders are more likely to continue releasing and supporting free scripts if you keep everything consolidated into one site. By adding that additional site you're just creating more time consuming work for the coders who want to release both commercial and free scripts. I know I have a hard time keeping track of my own contributions on vB.org, and I can't even imagine trying to support my work across two different boards. I think most coders wanting to release commercial scripts would be more likely to ditch vB.org entirely and move on to releasing commercial scripts only on the new board. That's just my 2 cents anyways ...

[The Geek]

no no no NO!
This will make coders very greedy and never make stuff for free. The forum is great because most the stuff is free and avalibable as long as you have vbulletin member area confimation!


Not as greedy as some expecting everything for free?

Would have been interesting to see the percentages from site contributors ;)

[C_P]

I would suggest no. Simply because the users of vB already pay for this great forum, now they should be expected to pay for modifications for it as well.
Honestly, it would deter me from returning here and would cause me to look elsewhere.
I would suggest if those that are interested in a "pay to play plan", start your own site for this. Why break it if it ain't broke?

[Revan]

Maybe we should try to organise such a poll, on a different site if the vBorg staff can't be bothered to setup a forum only coders could access for this purpose. The coders that couldn't be bothered to join and vote, aren't active enough and as such recant (or however you spell it) their right to have a say.

Might be too much hassle just to figure out what the coders think, but meh. It's a suggestion.

[The Geek]

I think its most likely too much work all around ;)

Points been made. Its not 'a small fringe want the information' its actually quite a huge percentage. Couple that with my guesstimate that 80% of site contributors are for it, I think that says everything :)
While I respect the opinions of those that do not contribute to .org, those that do contribute carry more weight with me in matters like this.

I think the polls now dead seeing that most voters seem to have skipped reading the relevant threads about the poll. Fun while it lasted :D

[Paul M]

Make a public poll, then you can see who is for/against.

I think you are wrong guessing that 80% of coders are for this, but either way, I'm in the against camp. :)

[MJM]

Why not create a poll listing possible methods contributing coders at this site can promote their paid add-ons?
It would need to be a multi-choice poll.
...preferrably if we could change our vote till it expires, as ensuing hopefully enlightening dialogue might affect our voting choice.

I would suggest including methods currently allowable. Here's some suggestions ...
- link to website > paid add-ons through profile?
- link to website > paid add-ons in signature?
- paid add-ons itemized with list of coders FOCs in profile?
- vB managed directory of add-ons - for submission only?
- section at forums for paid add-ons - only coders can post - no reply posting/reviews
- section at forums for paid add-ons - coder submitted - reviews accepted.

[noppid]

Make a public poll, then you can see who is for/against.

I think you are wrong guessing that 80% of coders are for this, but either way, I'm in the against camp. :)


I think the PhotoPost Vs vBadvanced gallery senario shows exactly why this site should not get involved with commercial products. That was not even officially played out here, yet the drama played out here due to it being vB related.

Times that by the number of commercial add ons out there and you have a preview of what it would be like here when customers are unhappy.

[trackpads]

I think the PhotoPost Vs vBadvanced gallery senario shows exactly why this site should not get involved with commercial products. That was not even officially played out here, yet the drama played out here due to it being vB related.

Times that by the number of commercial add ons out there and you have a preview of what it would be like here when customers are unhappy.

I dont agree at all. That 'played' out here only because it was allowed to. And only because a few people completely overacted, you included.

Secondly, and you missed this, just because paid hacks would be listed here doesnt mean they will be supported or hosted here, matter of fact I think that is the opposite of whats intended.

As things stand there is no resource listing for paid hacks, a sorely missed feature for a site that should be a complete VB Resource site.

[noppid]

1)I dont agree at all. That 'played' out here only because it was allowed to. And only because a few people completely overacted, you included.

2)Secondly, and you missed this, just because paid hacks would be listed here doesnt mean they will be supported or hosted here, matter of fact I think that is the opposite of whats intended.

3)As things stand there is no resource listing for paid hacks, a sorely missed feature for a site that should be a complete VB Resource site.

1) It played for a little while just fine. Then it was closed because it has no business here. You are suggesting we invite that crap from vendors who have dissatisfied customers on a regular basis?

2) See point one. The problems will come here. They already do. It would be escalated if they had a listing here no matter what.

3) If Jelsoft wants to go in the endorsement and advertising business, I'm sure you'll get that. If not, vb.org will stay as it is.

[Wayne Luke]

Should vBulletin.org have a section for paid add-ons?
Yes. It should. Many customers want a one-stop location for all modifications to the software and most of them would rather pay then have to learn PHP programming. Going along with that it should have resources to find designers, programmers, webmasters, and forum administrators for hire. And not just an ineffectual and vestigial "Services Requested" forum.

Should add-on authors be able to promote their commercial add-ons free of charge?
No... They will have to give to the community. This can be the release of "lite" versions of their commercial hacks, purchasing advertising space (to cover additional resources and help staff). It could even have a requirement of giving XX amount of free add-ons to the community.

Will allowing commercial add-ons eliminate people from releasing free add-ons?
No, I do not believe so. These commercial add-ons are already being created and the number of freebies continues to rise. Some people release all their add-ons for free on this site and they are going to stop? Even some of the people saying this will happen release add-ons as free? Are they suddenly going to turncoat and only release commercial add-ons? Doubtful. Fee or Free software is more of a philosophy and not really a market decision.. Fee based commercial software is not the end of the world and doesn't preclude Free software from existing. If that was the case then products like MySQL, PHP, Mozilla Firefox, Linux, Apache, and tens of thousands or other projects would not continue to exist and prosper even in the face of commercial endeavors.

The mere thought that people will change their philosophy on Software because a forum or a links directory is setup on this site is preposterous. People don't change philosophies lightly.

Finally, should vBulletin.org shoulder the bill of distributing and supporting Commerical Add-ons?
No. This is never what was proposed. It seeems many people who oppose this see a shopping cart and prices assigned to various addons. This is never what was proposed. What has been proposed is a forum where commercial developers can purchase advertising space (in the form of a thread) and advertise their commercial software. They would pay a monthly fee that would enable the site to have more resources and be able to provide more articles, free add-ons, styles, graphics and help the staff with their time here. Alternatively, a links directory where commercial providers would purchase links to have their products listed. At no time would this site be involved in distributing commercial add-ons or would support be provided on this site, at least not without substantial fees involved. If add-on authors want a free ride, they have to offer it to their users for the same price they expect to pay.

No one would be making money off this site without an investment into the site. It is that simple. Any commercial listing would have costs associated with it. There may be ways to mitigate paying actual money but it would require concrete and repeated contributions to the free community.

Finally...
I am not sure I really understand the animosity towards commercial hacks and add-ons myself. vBulletin customers will overwhelmingly purchase commercial styles, often times paying huge amounts for them, and yet complain about paying for a few lines of PHP code? Can't have it both ways. A designer's time is no more valuable than a PHP programmers. In fact, it could be considered less valuable because there are more Graphic Designers in this world than there are Programmers. Supply and Demand.

[trackpads]

Finally...
I am not sure I really understand the animosity towards commercial hacks and add-ons myself. vBulletin customers will overwhelmingly purchase commercial styles, often times paying huge amounts for them, and yet complain about paying for a few lines of PHP code? Can't have it both ways. A designer's time is no more valuable than a PHP programmers. In fact, it could be considered less valuable because there are more Graphic Designers in this world than there are Programmers. Supply and Demand.

Amen and Mega Dittos.

[MPDev]

Thank you, Wayne, for taking the time to answer those questions.

[MJM]

I have no problems with having a directory of commercial add-ons.

I am interested in this issue because I use vB /add-ons to run a not for profit site which has restrictions on members using the site for self promotion.
We do not sell any products, don't have banners ads, and use of signatures is strictly limited to contributors of site content.

However, the demand for related resources from members and visitors alike necessitates that we need to set up a separate commercial section, and I'm swaying towards the this opinion.

I would go for using a separate domain but this may mean having to have a separate user registration/access vs the current vB usergroup permissions db.

Main concerns are ...
- not losing the integrity of our NFP site.
- using the commercial directory to direct support questions to - NOT to cause more support issues.
- possibly using the commercial add-on to generate revenue towards supporting costs of running a not for profit free service site :)

~ Mark

[sabret00the]

Should vBulletin.org have a section for paid add-ons?
Yes. It should. Many customers want a one-stop location for all modifications to the software and most of them would rather pay then have to learn PHP programming. Going along with that it should have resources to find designers, programmers, webmasters, and forum administrators for hire. And not just an ineffectual and vestigial "Services Requested" forum.

Should add-on authors be able to promote their commercial add-ons free of charge?
No... They will have to give to the community. This can be the release of "lite" versions of their commercial hacks, purchasing advertising space (to cover additional resources and help staff). It could even have a requirement of giving XX amount of free add-ons to the community.

Will allowing commercial add-ons eliminate people from releasing free add-ons?
No, I do not believe so. These commercial add-ons are already being created and the number of freebies continues to rise. Some people release all their add-ons for free on this site and they are going to stop? Even some of the people saying this will happen release add-ons as free? Are they suddenly going to turncoat and only release commercial add-ons? Doubtful. Fee or Free software is more of a philosophy and not really a market decision.. Fee based commercial software is not the end of the world and doesn't preclude Free software from existing. If that was the case then products like MySQL, PHP, Mozilla Firefox, Linux, Apache, and tens of thousands or other projects would not continue to exist and prosper even in the face of commercial endeavors.

The mere thought that people will change their philosophy on Software because a forum or a links directory is setup on this site is preposterous. People don't change philosophies lightly.

Finally, should vBulletin.org shoulder the bill of distributing and supporting Commerical Add-ons?
No. This is never what was proposed. It seeems many people who oppose this see a shopping cart and prices assigned to various addons. This is never what was proposed. What has been proposed is a forum where commercial developers can purchase advertising space (in the form of a thread) and advertise their commercial software. They would pay a monthly fee that would enable the site to have more resources and be able to provide more articles, free add-ons, styles, graphics and help the staff with their time here. Alternatively, a links directory where commercial providers would purchase links to have their products listed. At no time would this site be involved in distributing commercial add-ons or would support be provided on this site, at least not without substantial fees involved. If add-on authors want a free ride, they have to offer it to their users for the same price they expect to pay.

No one would be making money off this site without an investment into the site. It is that simple. Any commercial listing would have costs associated with it. There may be ways to mitigate paying actual money but it would require concrete and repeated contributions to the free community.

Finally...
I am not sure I really understand the animosity towards commercial hacks and add-ons myself. vBulletin customers will overwhelmingly purchase commercial styles, often times paying huge amounts for them, and yet complain about paying for a few lines of PHP code? Can't have it both ways. A designer's time is no more valuable than a PHP programmers. In fact, it could be considered less valuable because there are more Graphic Designers in this world than there are Programmers. Supply and Demand.

good post.

[EasyTarget]

Should vBulletin.org have a section for paid add-ons?
Yes. It should. Many customers want a one-stop location for all modifications to the software and most of them would rather pay then have to learn PHP programming. Going along with that it should have resources to find designers, programmers, webmasters, and forum administrators for hire. And not just an ineffectual and vestigial "Services Requested" forum....

At no time would this site be involved in distributing commercial add-ons or would support be provided on this site, at least not without substantial fees involved. Maybe I'm just not understanding exactly what you're saying, but I'm one of the people that would love a 'one-stop location'. However after you say this you then qualify it by saying this location wouldn't distribute hacks or provide support?? That hardly seems like a 'one-stop' deal to me. I hate having to click through one site to another to another.No one would be making money off this site without an investment into the site. It is that simple. Any commercial listing would have costs associated with it. There may be ways to mitigate paying actual money but it would require concrete and repeated contributions to the free community.I think those are great solutions to appease both 'camps'. If it ever happens I'm hoping its not just lip service and that the vb team has the time and desire to ensure something like this would be a successful venture for everyone involved.

[Chris M]

Maybe I'm just not understanding exactly what you're saying, but I'm one of the people that would love a 'one-stop location'. However after you say this you then qualify it by saying this location wouldn't distribute hacks or provide support?? That hardly seems like a 'one-stop' deal to me. I hate having to click through one site to another to another.I think those are great solutions to appease both 'camps'. If it ever happens I'm hoping its not just lip service and that the vb team has the time and desire to ensure something like this would be a successful venture for everyone involved.

Having people release commercial products and support them on vBulletin.org potentially drags staff members and Jelsoft into the middle of support issues, arguements between disgruntled modification customers and security issues related to them...

Having them kept off-site is the only possible way it could work...

Chris

[derekivey]

I still don't understand why people need a one stop site for the free hacks and paid hacks together. Why doesn't someone just make another site for the paid hacks? It's only another site you need to go to, not lots. Whats so bad about another site???

[Wayne Luke]

It creates confusion in the marketplace.

[Christine]

While I was leaning toward supporting this as it (to me) was an access issue, over the last few days, I have seen where it can really get out of control, and it hasn't even started yet.

No, I am not talking about people not having the right to go into business (I am in the s/w business myself), it just sickens me to see people tearing into a competitor over a few measley bucks rather than focusing on growing their own product to be as competitive (no offence to any parties involved).

As this is a hobby for me, I think I will stick with my heart here -- and that is sharing with the GPL/GNU community, so finally tonight cast a vote for 'no'. After all, if it wasn't for places like sourceforge, where would we all be?

Best wishes to those who are going commercial.

<-- Your resident aging hippie capitalist http://www.floridacp.com/smilies/hippie.gif

[tamarian]

Finally...
I am not sure I really understand the animosity towards commercial hacks and add-ons myself.

You don't understand it because it's not there. After all, all the opinions expressed in this thread (for and against) are by people who already paid for vBulletin, which is commercial.

There is some animosity based on what many have seen take place here, where some commercial developers play by the rules, and some don't. Don't like to name names, unless pressed for it, but I'm sure many know of some examples of both, and they tend to stink the forum. Once the flood gate is open, you'll get more of that, especially when you have competing hacks, one's free, one's commercial, each with it's own fans, and the fans yelling how each gets their money's worth, our's is better, but you have to pay to see it, since the code is encypted, nananana. Then the possibility of copy-cats selling other's work with some changes and removal of copyrights, and possibly encrypting it as well.

Plus license checking. You see how many members on vb.com post other's forums and ask if it's pirated? Well, multiply that by the number of commercial hacks here, and there will be a lot more piracy accusations, and questions as to license keys, compounded by the different methods used by each commercial hacks, and how they do, us or misuse auto validations.

I'd rather those issues/fights take place elsewhere on the commercial developer's site, or a commercial directory site, and not see all the drama and stink here on vb.org.

[Erwin]

The voting is very close!

[el diablo]

I don't see why not... I'm always finding cool hacks on other sites that I can't find here -- so why not?

I've donated to people who make free hacks, there's really no difference. If a developer asks for donations and someone feels it's good enough to donate, what's the difference?

It's an Open Source world, but you'll still have to pay for some things :)

[wolfyman]

Unfortunately I don't have time to read the whole 8 pages because I have to search out other sites or find a programmer to get my hacks from since the particular ones I want right now are not on this website.

What I mean to say is I'd love to see paid hacks on this site, completely unmoderated by the authors of the hacks, where the rest of the paying members of vb.org could weigh in on the hacks.

If I have to go to the hack writers forum to learn about them, how much honesty can I actually expect? I can hope for a lot, but who knows what threads have been censored and how many unhappy customers have been banned, whereas if a paid hack was neglected and posted on this board, you could bet your last dollar someone would have an unedited and uncensored post about it.

That's my two pennies, throw them in with the rest. :)

[Chris M]

I don't see why not... I'm always finding cool hacks on other sites that I can't find here -- so why not?

I've donated to people who make free hacks, there's really no difference. If a developer asks for donations and someone feels it's good enough to donate, what's the difference?

It's an Open Source world, but you'll still have to pay for some things :)

Donations are by choice, hence the word ;)

@wolfyman - Currently that wouldn't happen with policies and rules set on this board...

If hypothetically we were to allow such things, we'd inevitably have to censor some threads and posts anyway, due to people who are anti-author or anti-hack ;)

Chris

[Wayne Luke]

As this is a hobby for me, I think I will stick with my heart here -- and that is sharing with the GPL/GNU community, so finally tonight cast a vote for 'no'. After all, if it wasn't for places like sourceforge, where would we all be?

There is no GPL/GNU community here. vBulletin is a commercial product.

Free software existed before Sourceforge was ever thought of. Before the GNU and the EFF ever formed. Before computers had keyboards and mice. Open Source, Public Domain, etc... will exist long after the Web is wetwired to your grandkids brains.

[Wayne Luke]

Plus license checking. You see how many members on vb.com post other's forums and ask if it's pirated? Well, multiply that by the number of commercial hacks here, and there will be a lot more piracy accusations, and questions as to license keys, compounded by the different methods used by each commercial hacks, and how they do, us or misuse auto validations.

I'd rather those issues/fights take place elsewhere on the commercial developer's site, or a commercial directory site, and not see all the drama and stink here on vb.org.

vBulletin.org wouldn't be the place for that still... And yes, I see a lot of Animosity on this site.

[el diablo]

Donations are by choice, hence the word ;)

Chris

Yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with the word... I think I've seen it around a few times ;)

Away from that magical word, If you don't want a "hack you have to pay for", you don't have to "pay" at all... you can simply find something for free around the site ;)

[tamarian]

And yes, I see a lot of Animosity on this site.

Not toward commercial software per se, as you claim. That would be trivializing the no votes, who have stated their reasons, most have nothing to do with paying for a commercial product, since as you well know, vBulletin is a commercial product too.

[wolfyman]

Donations are by choice, hence the word ;)

@wolfyman - Currently that wouldn't happen with policies and rules set on this board...

If hypothetically we were to allow such things, we'd inevitably have to censor some threads and posts anyway, due to people who are anti-author or anti-hack ;)

Chris

I know this aint the thread for it, but MAN that makes a great arguement for freedom of speech!

Regardless - your point is well taken. I would only value the suggested paid hacks forum if the rules you spoke of were lifted for the actual forum.

Personally, I read, hang out, and contribute a lot more at forums where the norm is to allow everyone to have their say and let the readers make their own choice. I hate when somebody filters my information, who the heck do you think you are to decide what information I need? Uggggh... I'm momentarily out of this discussion due to disgust at the ignorance running rampant in the world that makes stuff like this necessary. To those of you who can relate to my sentiment, keep fighting the good fight.

[Revan]

There's no such thing as freedom of speech. Anywhere. You aren't allowed to make for instance severe racist comments and such towards other people.

Anyways, I find it highly amusing that Chris M can argue so strongly against this, yet having COMPLETELY misunderstood the ENTIRE concept of this suggestion.
For the quadrillionth time, we are NOT bloody suggesting people RELEASE their mods here. What they WOULD be able to do is add their site to a directory, where they enter what hacks/services they offer, and a link to their site. Users will then be able to visit said site, examine the product for themselves, and either decide to purchase said hack or take their money elsewhere.
vBulletin.org would in no way host or support said paid hacks. vBulletin.org would be in no way responsible for the products on the site other than the removal of sites from said directory that the staff recieved a scamming report about.
Chris M, can you PLEASE read that segment, and change your tune? It is highly annoying to hear you talk like vB.org would allow the release of paid hacks in the same manner as it does now for free hacks.

[MJM]

A open dialog paid software review forum could become biased because those who are happy, like a satisfied new owner of a car aren't going to hang around the car lot. It will be mostly those dissatisfied customers making the biggest noise.
And as the saying goes ... it only takes a few apples to spoil the barrel.
... though I would add that a collective fermentation of apples can produce delicious scrumpy :)

Revan, Please would you or somebody start a new poll with this more realistic and more specific suggestion?
This poll is too divided and generalized, and something toned down might gain a greater majority.
I for one am indebted to the efforts of the coders contributions to this site and feel that a maintained directory of their paid add-ons would be a token of appreciation by vB to the coders and a valuable asset to us users.

and personally it is no fun hanging out in the Undecided voters rank :(

A suggestion...

Poll: Should .org have a directory of paid add-ons?

Q. ... only of contributing coders to vB.org?
Q. ... of any products that integrate with vB?

your qoute...
"What they WOULD be able to do is add their site to a directory, where they enter what hacks/services they offer, and a link to their site. Users will then be able to visit said site, examine the product for themselves, and either decide to purchase said hack or take their money elsewhere.
vBulletin.org would in no way host or support said paid hacks. vBulletin.org would be in no way responsible for the products."

Permission to list and placement of listings would be at the discretion of vB.

[The Geek]

maybe a new poll is in order now.

One that has SEVERAL options of how those that would like to see it implemented, done. If people are against it, they don't need to vote or contribute to the thread.

Personally, I would really like to see a rating system based on value, support, etc... And yes, even a ratings system can be abused (look at how some use thread ratings here). However it (and plenty of other options) would be great to explore.

here would be my suggestion for the poll:

Simple directory listing categorized by product (no ratings, discussions, etc...)
Enhanced directory listing categorized by product (ratings, no discussions)
Thread style discussions categorized by product
Simple directory listing categorized by company (no ratings, discussions, etc...)
Enhanced directory listing categorized by company(ratings, no discussions)
Thread style discussions categorized by company

Those are just to throw the idea out. Yes, some may be redundant - however its worth discussing. Some may only want to see a directory of companies. Me? I prefer listings of products (most people will be looking for a certain functionality, not company).

Ultimately its Jelsoft that will decide if its done and how to do it, however it could be a beneficial discussion to have regardless.

Lets get more ideas on the final poll before it gets posted please :)

[Chris M]

There's no such thing as freedom of speech. Anywhere. You aren't allowed to make for instance severe racist comments and such towards other people.

Anyways, I find it highly amusing that Chris M can argue so strongly against this, yet having COMPLETELY misunderstood the ENTIRE concept of this suggestion.
For the quadrillionth time, we are NOT bloody suggesting people RELEASE their mods here. What they WOULD be able to do is add their site to a directory, where they enter what hacks/services they offer, and a link to their site. Users will then be able to visit said site, examine the product for themselves, and either decide to purchase said hack or take their money elsewhere.
vBulletin.org would in no way host or support said paid hacks. vBulletin.org would be in no way responsible for the products on the site other than the removal of sites from said directory that the staff recieved a scamming report about.
Chris M, can you PLEASE read that segment, and change your tune? It is highly annoying to hear you talk like vB.org would allow the release of paid hacks in the same manner as it does now for free hacks.

Firstly - Re-read the threads concerning this - Some users are interpreting this as vBulletin.org hosting the mods and support... My annoying behaviour as you wish to call it is part of what I am trying to get accross - Explaining that scenario is not likely to happen, and as some users even on this page of this thread have already asked or pondered about is the case of everything being here...

Revan - You obviously are the one here who has misunderstood everything - My own personal opinions are that something like that would be good but I am fearful of it destroying what sense of community we have left here, something these threads have already proven is at risk...

Secondly - Just because you state that they'd have nothing to do with vBulletin.org does not make it so; We already get several threads a week about another product relating to vBulletin not working, asking for support, or just bad-mouthing the author of it...

Do you honestly think that would stop just because we say it isn't anything to do with us? We already say what currently goes on is nothing to do with us; We already say not to post questions in release forums; We already ask people to search for mods and hacks and ask the hack author if they will port to 3.5 instead of creating a thread about if first, but they still do not listen...

By having links here people will assume that this site has a level or responsibility and connection to any site listed, and as such these kinds of misplaced threads will increase in quantity...

Feel free to start another poll about this guys, with more diverse options for every eventuality, not just those which suit your personal side of the arguement...

And again, for a final point here - Revan, I've been discussing this before you got involved, publically and in private accross many mediums (not just limited to vB.org), and the consensus is that in a perfect world that idea that you have annoyingly (:p) repeated has been suggested numerous times... It's not that I don't get it, I really do...

What you forget is that while you can sit there and back your idea because it's the best thing since sliced bread, I cannot - I, like every other staff member here, have to look at the bigger picture, and examine every possible outcome that such a change could cause...

So please - Don't try and insult me for trying to make things clearer for those readers who don't understand what this is about, and for also covering all bases and doing my job here...

Chris

[Boofo]

maybe a new poll is in order now.

One that has SEVERAL options of how those that would like to see it implemented, done. If people are against it, they don't need to vote or contribute to the thread.

So what you are saying here is if they don't agree with you in wanting it and are against it, they shouldn't say anything as they will have no voice?

What doesn't sound right about that statement? ;)

[Revan]

Firstly - Re-read the threads concerning this - Some users are interpreting this as vBulletin.org hosting the mods and support... My annoying behaviour as you wish to call it is part of what I am trying to get accross - Explaining that scenario is not likely to happen, and as some users even on this page of this thread have already asked or pondered about is the case of everything being here...You made it sound like you were one of those people you mentioned. That's why I said what I said. And because of
My own personal opinions are that something like that would be good but I am fearful of it destroying what sense of community we have left here, something these threads have already proven is at risk..., I apologise.
I do believe that if such a directory WAS introduced, even just for a trial run, the users who misunderstood might realise that it's not what they thought, and be OK with it.
Secondly - Just because you state that they'd have nothing to do with vBulletin.org does not make it so; We already get several threads a week about another product relating to vBulletin not working, asking for support, or just bad-mouthing the author of it...

Do you honestly think that would stop just because we say it isn't anything to do with us? We already say what currently goes on is nothing to do with us; We already say not to post questions in release forums; We already ask people to search for mods and hacks and ask the hack author if they will port to 3.5 instead of creating a thread about if first, but they still do not listen...

By having links here people will assume that this site has a level or responsibility and connection to any site listed, and as such these kinds of misplaced threads will increase in quantity...I can't say much about this as I have not seen any such threads, but I suggest appointing one or two new moderators, whose sole job would be to find, answer with a "we are not affiliated" quick entry like that unlicenced one, and close the thread.
And again, for a final point here - Revan, I've been discussing this before you got involved, publically and in private accross many mediums (not just limited to vB.org), and the consensus is that in a perfect world that idea that you have annoyingly (:p) repeated has been suggested numerous times... It's not that I don't get it, I really do...

What you forget is that while you can sit there and back your idea because it's the best thing since sliced bread, I cannot - I, like every other staff member here, have to look at the bigger picture, and examine every possible outcome that such a change could cause...

So please - Don't try and insult me for trying to make things clearer for those readers who don't understand what this is about, and for also covering all bases and doing my job here...Again I apologise, it was my own ignorance at fault. Now that I hear you say it, it's bloody obvious that you had to consider every side and argue for and against both sides.

So yeah, Im gonna go over there, and...
:p

[Boofo]

I can't say much about this as I have not seen any such threads, but I suggest appointing one or two new moderators, whose sole job would be to find, answer with a "we are not affiliated" quick entry like that unlicenced one, and close the thread.

It will never be that easy if they are allowed here. Like Chris said, we get some every week that are angry or upset with a hack they have paid for and think we should be able to do something about it. Saying we are not affiliated and convincing the general population of that is 2 different things. Deniability doesn't work very often in this case.

[Brad]

I can't say much about this as I have not seen any such threads, but I suggest appointing one or two new moderators, whose sole job would be to find, answer with a "we are not affiliated" quick entry like that unlicenced one, and close the thread.

We bring new staff in when we feel the need to do so. It's highly unlikely that we would bring someone in just to do such a thing. Begin staff here takes a lot more then running around closing threads in the public forum. We look for people who we feel will help the overall team effort, be it helping to code new additions or taking part in discussions dealing with improving the site and helping shape the rules this community operates under.

[Chris M]

@Revan - Apology accepted :)

And part of the reason you don't see many is we dispose of them as soon as we find them or they are reported ;)

Chris

[The Geek]

So what you are saying here is if they don't agree with you in wanting it and are against it, they shouldn't say anything as they will have no voice?

What doesn't sound right about that statement? ;)

Bloody hell Boofo, I thought you had grown tired of twisting my words about ;)

What I said was to create a poll for those that felt .org should have a commercial information resource. The purpose of the poll would be to identify which direction those that agreed with the concept felt it should take. There is already a poll HERE for people to say whether or not they want it here (one in which the Yay's are at this point winning). In fact, there is already a discussion on the topic (here). I was hoping to get a FRESH discussion going and your attitude to the situation wont change that. :)

Thanks :D

[Chris M]

The poll changed overnight - Initially it started out more for it, then for a large period there were more against it, and now it's gone back to more for it - Therefore on average, against is winning...

Either way it's not the landslide lead I think some people expected to have, is it...

Chris

[The Geek]

Yea, ive watched it pretty closely however I think I can honestly say that its been more for for the vast majority of the time (I would say 90% of the time).

Regardless, the whole point seems to be missed - its not just a popularity contest, its a feeler to see if people want an avenue for more information or if Boofo was right when previously saying that only a few people wanted it.

Anyhooo - how can anyone be so bothered about it?
Why not start up another poll and another thread with lots of options on how to keep commerical information off of .org? ;)

[Boofo]

Bloody hell Boofo, I thought you had grown tired of twisting my words about ;)

What I said was to create a poll for those that felt .org should have a commercial information resource. The purpose of the poll would be to identify which direction those that agreed with the concept felt it should take. There is already a poll HERE for people to say whether or not they want it here (one in which the Yay's are at this point winning). In fact, there is already a discussion on the topic (here). I was hoping to get a FRESH discussion going and your attitude to the situation wont change that. :)

Thanks :D

I didn't twist anything. I just quoted what you said, word for word. Read it again. ;)

[Wayne Luke]

I can't say much about this as I have not seen any such threads, but I suggest appointing one or two new moderators, whose sole job would be to find, answer with a "we are not affiliated" quick entry like that unlicenced one, and close the thread.

Could also open an entirely new market for coders wishing to take it on as well.

If there were commercial listings allowed it wouldn't be restricted to programming products but would allow styles and services to be advertised as well.

The tricky part would be handling complaints because they will happen.

[The Geek]

I didn't twist anything. I just quoted what you said, word for word. Read it again. ;)

fair enough - I think you got me this time :)

Anyhooo - thats what I meant. I didnt see a reason to create another thread about the same debate, rather a thread that was focused on 'if it happens, this is how I feel it would work best'.

In the end, it may make a difference, however it could also provide a good source of constructive feedback that could help Jelsoft see an area they hadnt taken into account.

Maybe we should start a poll to see if we should start the poll :rolleyes:

[Boofo]

fair enough - I think you got me this time :)
That was not my intention. ;)

Maybe we should start a poll to see if we should start the poll :rolleyes:
And when it gets split again, who decides which way to go? ;)

[The Geek]

That was not my intention. ;)


And when it gets split again, who decides which way to go? ;)

by way of vote of course!

[Boofo]

by way of vote of course!
So another poll to see who decides on the first poll. hmmmm....

I suppose we better start off with a poll to decide if we should have a poll in the first place, huh? ;)

(This is making my head hurt. :()

[Revan]

We bring new staff in when we feel the need to do so. It's highly unlikely that we would bring someone in just to do such a thing. Begin staff here takes a lot more then running around closing threads in the public forum. We look for people who we feel will help the overall team effort, be it helping to code new additions or taking part in discussions dealing with improving the site and helping shape the rules this community operates under.I know that being staff here involves more, that is why I said that this person would not be staff per se, in the sense that s/he wouldnt have normal moderation powers, just to sniff out and remove such threads.

You both got it all wrong, we need to make a poll deciding whether or not we make a poll deciding who makes the poll deciding what options the poll deciding whether or not we make a revised poll about this suggestion.
I thought THAT much would be obvious. :ninja:

[Boofo]

Now my head REALLY hurts. :(

[MJM]

Here's a toned down poll to see if a very basic directory listing
of paid add-ons would generate a different consensus of opinion.

Provide a list of paid vB add-ons at vB.org? (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=101447)

[Wayne Luke]

Here's a toned down poll to see if a very basic directory listing
of paid add-ons would generate a different consensus of opinion.

Provide a list of paid vB add-ons at vB.org? (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=101447)

I closed it... Polls are worthless unless you force the membership to vote when they visit. Keep everything in one thread.

[MJM]

Wayne Luke ...
12 Polls about this topic? i didn't see them.

I never knew there were restrictions on making Polls.
I did try and make it specifically different, and was able to vote accordingly.

>>Polls are worthless unless you force the membership to vote when they visit.

I respectfully disagree.

>>Keep everything in one thread.

Are you going to move my Thread, the Angry.Orgers Thread, and the 10 other Polls to this thread?

~ Mark

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Polls are worthless unless you force the membership to vote when they visit.Then why is this not a default option in vBulletin. ;) :D :D :D

[PennylessZ28]

yes they should, take the other reasons and put them in the garbage and stop being **** Edited (MarcoH64) ****.

**** Please keep things civilized

[MJM]

The main differences with The Poll... Provide a list of paid vB add-ons at vB.org? (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=101447)

1) It was only a Poll about providing a listing of free and paid add-ons.
2) It was conducted by a customer - not a coder, (I don't even do installs and upgrades - but I own and manage everything else)
In the couple hours it was up, before being abruptly squelched, the Poll indicated 75% in favor of a listing of free and paid add-ons.
3) I was able to vote yes.

Re: Listing ...
If vB won't do it, could a non-biased member make up a list and post it?
It seems acceptable to post questions for vB add-on products, so why can't someone here formulate a list of paid add-ons in a thread?
There could be a submission contact addy, The thread could be closed / a sticky / edited with new submissions - no reviews or commentary.

That's all that's needed. I can find reviews and opinions elsewhere.

--------
About this paid add-ons section Poll ...

I'm stuck in Undecided slot here and now I would like to vote my final decision.

A Forum Poll that is ongoing, with ongoing dialogue that can have influence on voting decision should allow for changing vote.

I would like to vote NO on this one.

A directory list would suffice.
If vB.com wants to turn Vb.org into into a commercial self supporting add-on to it's product, then the whole atmosphere of this site and community attitude will change.

just an opinion ... take it for what it's worth

~ Mark

[EasyTarget]

Having people release commercial products and support them on vBulletin.org potentially drags staff members and Jelsoft into the middle of support issues, arguements between disgruntled modification customers and security issues related to them...Isn't this an issue now anyways? If you find security issues do you leave the hack up? If a coder and/or user is being belligerent in a thread do you not speak up as moderators to calm it down?

If you have a problem with a coder, take down his hack. If you have a problem with a user, take away their posting rights. Maybe you can implement some sort of system to hold $$ for X amount of days to ensure a user doesn't have a security or support issue (of course clarify what is and isn't reasonable support/security issues).
Having them kept off-site is the only possible way it could work...that's an odd statement coming from a coder who should know there lots of ways to 'skin a cat'.

[trackpads]

'skin a cat'.

did someone say cat??

http://www.edville.com/temp/Thread-Crap-WakeMeUp.jpg

sorry, couldnt resist trying to cheer things up :)

[kewl1uk]

No because there would be no chance to test a hack before you pay for it. I think a donate button possibly in a HTML install instructions file is enough. Personally, I always donate something where a donate button is available and I use the hack and find it useful.

[The Geek]

No because there would be no chance to test a hack before you pay for it. I think a donate button possibly in a HTML install instructions file is enough. Personally, I always donate something where a donate button is available and I use the hack and find it useful.

so youre the one ;)

[Chris M]

Isn't this an issue now anyways? If you find security issues do you leave the hack up? If a coder and/or user is being belligerent in a thread do you not speak up as moderators to calm it down?

If you have a problem with a coder, take down his hack. If you have a problem with a user, take away their posting rights. Maybe you can implement some sort of system to hold $$ for X amount of days to ensure a user doesn't have a security or support issue (of course clarify what is and isn't reasonable support/security issues).
that's an odd statement coming from a coder who should know there lots of ways to 'skin a cat'.

We already have a system for free hacks - Bringing commercial hacks in would complicate the relationship between staff and commercial coders...

Chris

[EasyTarget]

We already have a system for free hacksyou're right, so it shouldn't be so hard to add commercial hacks. - Bringing commercial hacks in would complicate the relationship between staff and commercial coders...what is your relationship with them right now? how would it change? and why would that change be bad? Instead of thinking of reasons/excuses you don't like the proposal try thinking of reasons to resolve them. The one's you posted are already issues you have with free hacks. Why don't you just stop hosting free hacks as well and only have a link directory?

I think it'd be worse to link your users to another site where you have no control of support, payments, content, copy hacks, quality, etc. You'll also begin to split up the market in which vbulletin.org is pretty much the only legitimate player. Some other concerns I have are that if a user has a problem and the coder won't help them then they're left out to dry. Are you going to get involved then and try to moderate on other sites to see if what the user is saying is true? Are you going to remove those links from the link directory? how will you know if there's a problem if the site admin has deleted all traces of it?

How I see it, hosting them here solves a lot of problems but it just creates a lot more work.

[Boofo]

How I see it, hosting them here solves a lot of problems but it just creates a lot more work.

Hosting them here would cause a lot more problems than it would solve.

[Revan]

That's why it is the foundation of this suggestion NOT to host them here, but just provide a directory for them.
I know this poll is unclear about this fact, but since the new, improved poll was destroyed...

[Ski-Whiz]

Do that, and I think Invision will be the better option... I know I honestly would probaly jump ship and go there.

There are TOO MANY hacks that are coded terribly, and there are too many variables to deal with.

Like support... What if the coder stops supporting it etc..

[Chris M]

you're right, so it shouldn't be so hard to add commercial hacks.what is your relationship with them right now? how would it change? and why would that change be bad? Instead of thinking of reasons/excuses you don't like the proposal try thinking of reasons to resolve them. The one's you posted are already issues you have with free hacks. Why don't you just stop hosting free hacks as well and only have a link directory?

I think it'd be worse to link your users to another site where you have no control of support, payments, content, copy hacks, quality, etc. You'll also begin to split up the market in which vbulletin.org is pretty much the only legitimate player. Some other concerns I have are that if a user has a problem and the coder won't help them then they're left out to dry. Are you going to get involved then and try to moderate on other sites to see if what the user is saying is true? Are you going to remove those links from the link directory? how will you know if there's a problem if the site admin has deleted all traces of it?

How I see it, hosting them here solves a lot of problems but it just creates a lot more work.

You misunderstand - You asked about implementing some kind of system for security issues...

I said "We already have one in place for free hacks", meaning that we have a system of detecting and sorting out free hacks with security issues...

Add commercial hacks to the mix brings up many avenues of difficulty when commercial hacks are hosted from this site...

Chris

[SuperFly]

Do that, and I think Invision will be the better option... I know I honestly would probably jump ship and go there.

There are TOO MANY hacks that are coded terribly, and there are too many variables to deal with.

Like support... What if the coder stops supporting it etc..


Sounds like you already have......

So what if they stop giving support, they have lives too, remember its a forum not your life. Sure its a CONVENIENCE to help us fix the problems that WE caused, but thats just it a CONVENIENCE. And if youi think the hacks are coded poorly id like to see you do better.

[The Geek]

There are too many poorly coded and supported hacks because 99.9999% of the people that install here do not give anything to the creator - hence little reason for many professional end coders to do anything.

Offer a solution for commercial modifications and you are going to see a lot more professional enhancments out there.

[Boofo]

There are too many poorly coded and supported hacks because 99.9999% of the people that install here do not give anything to the creator - hence little reason for many professional end coders to do anything.


So money makes a difference in how well you code or support your product? I have to disagree as they are many well-coded and well-supported free hacks right here on the org.

Offer a solution for commercial modifications and you are going to see a lot more professional enhancments out there.

And you will also see an increase in shoddy coding and non-existant support.

[EasyTarget]

Hosting them here would cause a lot more problems than it would solve.what problems? you guys keep saying that but never list any problems. From what I can tell it will create more work but not really new problems.And you will also see an increase in shoddy coding and non-existant support.I agree. I've seen many coders already say they have well paying jobs already and this is just a side thing. So unless they're making enough $$ to surpass their current job I don't think you'll be seeing more/better support. There's still only 24 hours in a day. Adding $$ will encourage novice coders to throw their hat in the ring for a piece of the pie, which could be a good thing as much as a bad thing.Add commercial hacks to the mix brings up many avenues of difficulty when commercial hacks are hosted from this sitewhat are they? why not address the difficulties?

Since you're a coder I'm sure you'd rather have a link directory because its going to be bringing traffic to your personal site, but why is that a good thing for vb.org or this community?

[Chris M]

what problems? you guys keep saying that but never list any problems. From what I can tell it will create more work but not really new problems.I agree. I've seen many coders already say they have well paying jobs already and this is just a side thing. So unless they're making enough $$ to surpass their current job I don't think you'll be seeing more/better support. There's still only 24 hours in a day. Adding $$ will encourage novice coders to throw their hat in the ring for a piece of the pie, which could be a good thing as much as a bad thing.what are they? why not address the difficulties?

Since you're a coder I'm sure you'd rather have a link directory because its going to be bringing traffic to your personal site, but why is that a good thing for vb.org or this community?

No - Assuming that I as a coder want a Links Directory is absurd...

As a Coder, if one were made I would probably put my link there and pay for the privelige, however, I do not need to do it nor will I have temper tantrums and jibes at the Staff for not succombing to my wants and needs...

I, as a Community Member can see the benefits of having a Links Directory regardless of whether or not I am a Coder - I, as a Staff Member, can see the problems having such a Links Directory would cause...

The difficulties come from many things, but not limited to:

a.) The coder thinking a particular staff member is "picking on them" because they don't get on well with the particular staff member that located a Security flaw with their modification
b.) The coder being absent for an announced amount of time, and a Staff member fixing their code without their authorisation or contact to say that they could (Not that we need it, just that some people object to you trying to help them)
c.) Problems arising from us fixing the Security issue as to whether the coder can code properly and therefore potential risks such as the coder being boycotted or openly attacked by disgruntled or doubtful members

Three scenarios not having the modifications on vBulletin.org will solve :)

Chris

[MRGTB]

when is this vote poll scheduled to end - Date it ends?

If there is none, don't you think a end date should be put in place, otherwise if the result to add a commercial section wins when an admin just decides to end the vote poll. People are gonna complain that the Vote Poll was ended on purpose while the YES votes were leading.

You need to set an end date on this for people to see. Otherwise people are gonna view this as a rigged vote poll to suit coders who want cash for there scripts.

So Please edit the first post or something to add when this: ENDS!!!

[EasyTarget]

Assuming that I as a coder want a Links Directory is absurd...so you don't help with that vb link directory site? sorry, I must have you confused with someone else. And even if there wasn't that evidence.. why is it absurd to assume that? I posted good reason for a coder to want a link directory, why don't you post some reasons for a coder to NOT want one?
however, I do not need to do it nor will I have temper tantrums and jibes at the Staff for not succombing to my wants and needs...what are you talking about or referring to? does that really need to be in your post?
The difficulties come from many things, but not limited to:

a.) The coder thinking a particular staff member is "picking on them" because they don't get on well with the particular staff member that located a Security flaw with their modification
b.) The coder being absent for an announced amount of time, and a Staff member fixing their code without their authorisation or contact to say that they could (Not that we need it, just that some people object to you trying to help them)
c.) Problems arising from us fixing the Security issue as to whether the coder can code properly and therefore potential risks such as the coder being boycotted or openly attacked by disgruntled or doubtful members

Three scenarios not having the modifications on vBulletin.org will solve :)all 3 of those scenarios already exist here at .org, do they not?

[Chris M]

No I am not involved with a vB Link Directory Site - I am involved with vBulletin Services.com, which aims to provide somewhere else for people to add their site to a list - This has nothing to do with my thoughts or beliefs of doing so on vBulletin.org and therefore is completely irrelevant...

I am talking about the fact that some people demand a Links Directory here and don't think about if from the point of view of others, just their own...

Those 3 scenarios occur to a certain point, however issues with Commercial hacks could bring in legal action in extreme cases, something we would rather like to avoid...

Chris

[Chris M]

when is this vote poll scheduled to end - Date it ends?

If there is none, don't you think a end date should be put in place, otherwise if the result to add a commercial section wins when an admin just decides to end the vote poll. People are gonna complain that the Vote Poll was ended on purpose while the YES votes were leading.

You need to set an end date on this for people to see. Otherwise people are gonna view this as a rigged vote poll to suit coders who want cash for there scripts.

So Please edit the first post or something to add when this: ENDS!!!

I've edited the Poll to close 30 days after it started, therefore on the 13th of December...

Chris

[EasyTarget]

No I am not involved with a vB Link Directory Site - I am involved with vBulletin Services.com, which aims to provide somewhere else for people to add their site to a listlol, that just reminds me of a famous quote "I did not have sexual relations with that woman".
issues with Commercial hacks could bring in legal action in extreme cases, something we would rather like to avoid...yes, that's a good reason, but I'm sure a well written/thought out user agreement and active staff involvement could curb most of those incidents.

[Chris M]

Perhaps - I, for one, would rather never find out :)

Chris

[bigcurt]

Sorry guys, love to see some expansion to eh community but not in that way ( I broke the tie :-D )

~Curt

[Boofo]

LOL @ Curt. Took you long enough, sir. ;)

[bigcurt]

Yea, I have been BUSY..but I am back to posting and being my regular old lazy self in about 2 days :-D

~Curt

[TruthElixirX]

That's why it is the foundation of this suggestion NOT to host them here, but just provide a directory for them.
I know this poll is unclear about this fact, but since the new, improved poll was destroyed...


Yes, everyone seems to be missing the point. We do NOT want to host/support/offer them on vb.org. We a directory that has paid hacks to where we can go to the site.

If you put it on a seperate site you could make it a directory and the only staff you have is the ones that add sites and take others off. Plan and simple.

[EasyTarget]

We do NOT want to host/support/offer them on vb.org.That's exactly what I'm looking for.

[Ski-Whiz]

Sounds like you already have......

So what if they stop giving support, they have lives too, remember its a forum not your life. Sure its a CONVENIENCE to help us fix the problems that WE caused, but thats just it a CONVENIENCE. And if youi think the hacks are coded poorly id like to see you do better.


Dude, you have NO clue!! Why are you to judge anyone!?!?!?!

I guess you have a guilty conscience on terribly coded hacks! I have no clue on what you have coded.

If you want to charge for coding, go ahead, you can do it just like others here have.

Don't try and rally people into jumping into you money hungry idea.

I have no problem buying scripts/hacks that are worth it, however, I purchased a quiz hack that is inferior to the one on here for free. So again, just because it's a paid hack, doesn't mean people will get what they want.

So you need to take a reality check, and see that this community is doing just fine without making it a paid site.

When the bulk of people start charging for scripts, two things will happen:

We will be able to grab them on IRC, or they will NOT buy vbulletin. And I'm pretty sure Jelsoft would see their sales drop...

[SuperFly]

Dude, you have NO clue!! Why are you to judge anyone!?!?!?!

I guess you have a guilty conscience on terribly coded hacks! I have no clue on what you have coded.

If you want to charge for coding, go ahead, you can do it just like others here have.

Don't try and rally people into jumping into you money hungry idea.

I have no problem buying scripts/hacks that are worth it, however, I purchased a quiz hack that is inferior to the one on here for free. So again, just because it's a paid hack, doesn't mean people will get what they want.

So you need to take a reality check, and see that this community is doing just fine without making it a paid site.

When the bulk of people start charging for scripts, two things will happen:

We will be able to grab them on IRC, or they will NOT buy vbulletin. And I'm pretty sure Jelsoft would see their sales drop...


That right there, shows how ungrateful you are to coders, * Edited due to inflammatory remark.

[Ski-Whiz]

Superfly,

you obviously are some kid who has no clue what I'm saying!

Don't get mad at me for expressing my point. If you don't like my opinion, don't ATTACK me!

Get a life, and most of all, get a job!

Coding is done for fun. Coders do everyone a great service by offering their hacks.

The ones that hurt the community are the ones that try to make a buck off it!

Most people including myself, have donated to coders, as the person who doesn't ask for money, are the ones that get it.

You are new to this community, and don't know the whole picture, so do me a favor, and stay out of peoples OPINIONS!!

[Chris M]

That right there, shows how ungrateful you are to coders, * Edited due to inflammatory remark.

Please calm down and do not resort to personal attacks...

Chris

[MRGTB]

That right there, shows how ungrateful you are to coders, * Edited due to inflammatory remark.

Please remember that people are mainly voting against payed hacks being offered here (nothing to do with anybody being ungrateful). For example, I voted "NO because my feeling are.

If a good coder wants to create some of his hacks to sell. Thats great, but I voted no because I think they can do this from there own sites (advertised in there signature). Were they could probably give better support as a whole for payed users of there hacks anyway. My feeling were that vB.org should remain a site dedicated to free hacks only. And let hacker own sites deal with there paid hack they have to offer.

[tnguy3n]

Coding is done for fun. Coders do everyone a great service by offering their hacks.

Reason why I voted no. :p

[Revan]

Please remember that people are mainly voting against payed hacks being offered here (nothing to do with anybody being ungrateful). For example, I voted "NO because my feeling are.

If a good coder wants to create some of his hacks to sell. Thats great, but I voted no because I think they can do this from there own sites (advertised in there signature). Were they could probably give better support as a whole for payed users of there hacks anyway. My feeling were that vB.org should remain a site dedicated to free hacks only. And let hacker own sites deal with there paid hack they have to offer.And if you had bothered to understand the concept of this poll, you would have understood that vBulletin.org would in no way host or support these modifications. vBulletin.org would have a directory of links to such sites, Apart from removing sites that are confirmed as scamming sites or other illegal entries, vBulletin.org would in no way be responsible for these modifications.
Your attitude is what annoys me extremely. "*sees the word 'paid'* Ohs noes! Abomination! *votes no* They should only be allowed to advertise using links!". Well guess what, THAT'S THE SUGGESTION!

[The Geek]

So money makes a difference in how well you code or support your product? I have to disagree as they are many well-coded and well-supported free hacks right here on the org.


Not in every case, but most certainly in MANY hence the reason I used the word.

I'm sure Boofo that you only take your car to mechanics that don't charge anything and work sporadically throughout the month. I'm sure when it comes time to style your coiffure that you ask around your neighborhood to find someone that likes to cut and style hair as a hobby on a Tuesday evening as long as they haven't seen that nights rerun of Nash Bridges.

Why do you seem to think that professional coders do shoddy work and give no support? People who get paid to do a job generally do it better otherwise they wouldn't get paid for the job. Sure its not a universal rule - but if I wanted a plumber, I would pay a professional rather than a that guys down the street that put in a toilet once and is willing to help me for free. Buying professional doesn't mean that I cant get stung - but in my experience I am usually far more satisfied with the job done.

Lets face it - if a script sucks, isn't supported, etc... IT WONT SELL. Thats one of the reasons why I am behind a directory of commercial scripts (that link off site) but one where people could rate (yes, that can be complex, but valuable).

Anyway - for Petes sake people, if you dont want it - you dont have to use the freaking thing!

And yes, I fully agree that there are a lot of great FOC hacks that are also well supported here, however I would also add that I think they are a huge amount that are not. :)

[Paul M]

I see this topic has fallen to the level of people attacking each other. Perhaps a sigh of what would happen if this change were made ...

[The Geek]

I see this topic has fallen to the level of people attacking each other. Perhaps a sigh of what would happen if this change were made ...


Its not like this site is clean of people attacking each other now! In fact, that was the reason this whole thing came - people attacking coders that released stuff free!

Regardless, you're right - it shouldn't get personal.

[Boofo]

Not in every case, but most certainly in MANY hence the reason I used the word.

I'm sure Boofo that you only take your car to mechanics that don't charge anything and work sporadically throughout the month. I'm sure when it comes time to style your coiffure that you ask around your neighborhood to find someone that likes to cut and style hair as a hobby on a Tuesday evening as long as they haven't seen that nights rerun of Nash Bridges.

Why do you seem to think that professional coders do shoddy work and give no support? People who get paid to do a job generally do it better otherwise they wouldn't get paid for the job. Sure its not a universal rule - but if I wanted a plumber, I would pay a professional rather than a that guys down the street that put in a toilet once and is willing to help me for free. Buying professional doesn't mean that I cant get stung - but in my experience I am usually far more satisfied with the job done.

Lets face it - if a script sucks, isn't supported, etc... IT WONT SELL. Thats one of the reasons why I am behind a directory of commercial scripts (that link off site) but one where people could rate (yes, that can be complex, but valuable).

Anyway - for Petes sake people, if you dont want it - you dont have to use the freaking thing!

And yes, I fully agree that there are a lot of great FOC hacks that are also well supported here, however I would also add that I think they are a huge amount that are not. :)

Analogies don't work on this one, sorry. They are getting a bit tiring. ;)

The ones that DON'T want this here are also the ones that don't want the headaches it will bring on trying to police a situation that we don't have any control over in the first place. There is still going to be disgruntled customers who will believe that we had a hand in their misery due to us allowing (or recommending as most of them will see it) the hacks or even links here because they think we allowed them to get taken. We will be up to our ears in the "he said this", "he didn't deliver this" sort of thing and we have enough of it going on already.

As a matter of fact, without naming names, there are plenty of free hacks on here that outweigh some of the paid ones we have all seen around in both time taken to code and the sheer support of them. And these authors aren't complaining they need to make money off of the masses to survive.

If you all want to make the almighty dollar, then I hope you succeed, every one of you. But you do NOT need to org to do it. The bad from something like that will far outweigh the good every time. There are just some phone books that some things should never be allowed to be advertised or sold in and the org is one of them. ;)

[The Geek]

Analogies don't work on this one, sorry. They are getting a bit tiring. ;)


Then I guess nothing will work for you. Analogies, polls, discussion, etc... kill it all just because you think its 'bad'. Digging ones heels in and saying its 'bad' isnt very contructive and doesnt help come up with solutions that customers are asking for.

Geekious say "Try being more optimistic and good karma will come your way" :)

[Boofo]

Then I guess nothing will work for you. Analogies, polls, discussion, etc... kill it all just because you think its 'bad'. Digging ones heels in and saying its 'bad' isnt very contructive and doesnt help come up with solutions that customers are asking for.

Geekious say "Try being more optimistic and good karma will come your way" :)

I wish I could be optomistic about all of it, but you don't see what goes on behind the scenes because of things like this.

And let's be honest, it is more what you and the other commercial authors are looking for than what the customers want. They don't seem to have any problems finding your commercial hacks now, right?

Digging one's heels in if they go with there beliefs and expieriences (sp?), is not really bad, is it? ;)

And please don't take this personally. It is not intended that way. ;)

[MRGTB]

And if you had bothered to understand the concept of this poll, you would have understood that vBulletin.org would in no way host or support these modifications. vBulletin.org would have a directory of links to such sites, Apart from removing sites that are confirmed as scamming sites or other illegal entries, vBulletin.org would in no way be responsible for these modifications.
Your attitude is what annoys me extremely. "*sees the word 'paid'* Ohs noes! Abomination! *votes no* They should only be allowed to advertise using links!". Well guess what, THAT'S THE SUGGESTION!

In that case whats the point of this poll in having them listed here rather than using a link in your signature. As reading that above makes me think whats the point of all this.

[Talisman]

when is this vote poll scheduled to end - Date it ends?

If there is none, don't you think a end date should be put in place, otherwise if the result to add a commercial section wins when an admin just decides to end the vote poll. People are gonna complain that the Vote Poll was ended on purpose while the YES votes were leading.

This isn't directed at you, Gary..... but I thought it worthwhile to point this out for anyone else following the results who may assume that this poll itself will decide .org policy in and of itself. That's actually not the case. Whether the role of this site will be changed to allow commercial hacks to be sponsored, advertised/listed here is a decision that will be made by Jelsoft and other people presently responsible for maintaining this site. A majority vote in either direction is not the final decision.

The poll may be an indicator, though how well it represents all members is debatable, naturally, because such a low number of votes are cast. Alot of members (on both sides) who would be affected by this haven't come across the thread to be drawn into this discussion.

[trackpads]

One stop shopping. I cant follow everyones sigs to find a professional product. This isnt a resource site without them, and VB isnt opensource like linux. Even Postnuke has commercial hack sections and it opensource!!!

A single forum of professional hacks is not gonna cause the site to implode. I have no idea why people could think so.

[Talisman]

A single forum of professional hacks is not gonna cause the site to implode. I have no idea why people could think so.

You really don't think so? Then check out that crippleware thread. :rolleyes:

There will always be problems spilling over that are unique to commercial/paid hacks if they are listed or advertised here. No matter how clearly the disclaimers are worded, that's not going to be enough to avoid real nasty conflicts at this site. Our vb.org staff shouldn't have to monitor the interaction between commercial hackers selling their code/support for a price.. but they'll get dragged into all this nonsense if commercial projects are listed here or advertised here.

Indirectly, this site would play a role and someone could argue that they grant some implied vb.org good seal of approval simply because they allow some hack in question to be sold/advertised here at this site. A member who found that paid hack through this service and who felt somehow that he had been ripped off or defrauded would naturally feel justified in holding vb.org to blame as well as the commercial coder, himself. They could honestly say, "If it wasn't for the fact that I found THAT hack through this forum, I would never have paid for it and installed it."

That isn't truly the case because .org would not screen the hacks before they get promoted here. But no one will be able to convince outraged customers of that.

[kewl1uk]

I think I'll change my mind on this. Shame I already voted. But anyway, thinking about my own experience, some hacks like Journals were readily available but some hacks such as a Portal, Gallery and Links were not so readily available. That entailed searching the threads and posts for links. From there I had to go to the VBadvanced site to buy and download their products. So yes, a commercial hacks section would be convenient and useful in keeping everything in one place and would also separate hacks which have a pay element from those hacks which are free.

[trackpads]

You really don't think so? Then check out that crippleware thread.

If we allow people to rant like that then it will. The crippleware thread was nothing more than an attack on a hack those people dont even use. Nothing less. Personally, people who act like that should be bashed over the head.

Even without the Commercial forums I could still go into the lounge and attack other commercial hacks and get away with it. The only reason people dont is because a few of us call people out. Like the vbadvanced and other arguments.

Vb is commercial, not some opensource freeware internet creation, having a commercial hack section expands the options for professional owners to expand our sites and get dedicated support. Free hack authors here dont have to support anything they code, that can be problematic if you are running business.

That isn't truly the case because .org would not screen the hacks before they get promoted here. But no one will be able to convince outraged customers of that.


So your saying the Service Requests (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=30) forum should go too? Is it causing this kind of confusion? Sorry, it doesnt hold water.

[noppid]

As of today, I think good quality FOC hacks will be a thing of the past. Those of us that release FOC hacks, help noob's with code and help apprentice coders complete hacks have pretty much had any quid-pro-qou removed today that may have given us a means to make a buck now and then.

I've seen it suggested that we are almost obligated/expected when here to provide that support to gain respect. But I have to ask, to what benefit? vBulletins? This new way the rules will be enforced will hurt the quality of the community for certain!

FOC now means "fecth own code" from where I sit. I no longer have a reason to be here. Thanks for the memories.

[Talisman]

No, of course not, Trackpads. Don't take my post and change the meaning to suit your own agenda.

All I'm saying is the same thing others have been telling you all along. The staff at vb.org have enough crap to deal with here already -- without adding even more complaints that they'll get when some paying customer gets angry or some commercial hacker does a lousy job.

Hackers going into business for themselves should take care of their own networking and advertising at their own site. Or maybe if they didn't compete against each other so much in the silly "my hack is better than yours" competitiveness (take competing portals and galleries for example), then maybe they could set up their own site where they centralize their own index to make it easier for everyone.

There're many different ways they can promote their business enterprises without changing the function of this site. Why can't they pursue other options?

[yoyoyoyo]

If we allow people to rant like that then it will. The crippleware thread was nothing more than an attack on a hack those people dont even use. Nothing less. Personally, people who act like that should be bashed over the head.
AGAIN with the insults and mud-slinging! ENOUGH ALREADY!

You do not have any knowledge of me or my sites or my use of those hacks, so stop presuming and assuming! I said what I had to say in those thread, and you choose to attack me in many other threads. please stop it now!

[noppid]

AGAIN with the insults and mud-slinging! ENOUGH ALREADY!

You do not have any knowledge of me or my sites or my use of those hacks, so stop presuming and assuming! I said what I had to say in those thread, and you choose to attack me in many other threads. please stop it now!

You best bet is to not reply, the goal seems to get the thread closed.

Good luck.

As of today, I think good quality FOC hacks will be a thing of the past. Those of us that release FOC hacks, help noob's with code and help apprentice coders complete hacks have pretty much had any quid-pro-qou removed today that may have given us a means to make a buck now and then.

I've seen it suggested that we are almost obligated/expected when here to provide that support to gain respect. But I have to ask, to what benefit? vBulletins? This new way the rules will be enforced will hurt the quality of the community for certain!

FOC now means "fecth own code" from where I sit. I no longer have a reason to be here. Thanks for the memories.

Ya know, I just thought this through. The rules are still playable. I was just annoyed.

vBPicGallery lite will be available soon for download on vBulletin.org!

[Zachery]

You best bet is to not reply, the goal seems to get the thread closed.

Good luck.



Ya know, I just thought this through. The rules are still playable. I was just annoyed.

vBPicGallery lite will be available soon for download on vBulletin.org!

*cough*

We are working on vBulletinServices.com and trying to get it up to what the community expects. Paid addon discussion is allowed there :)

[noppid]

*cough*

We are working on vBulletinServices.com and trying to get it up to what the community expects. Paid addon discussion is allowed there :)


How's that going? Oh hell, I'll just visit. ;)

[Talisman]

Thank you, Zachery... sounds like that's the best solution. Let us know when it's ready. :bunny:

[tamarian]

We are working on vBulletinServices.com and trying to get it up to what the community expects. Paid addon discussion is allowed there :)

I think that's the best way to go. :up:

Saw your announcement looking for an article system. I heard good things about vB Drupal ;)

[Revan]

In that case whats the point of this poll in having them listed here rather than using a link in your signature. As reading that above makes me think whats the point of all this.Because anything but a link to your site (ie any promotional/advertising text) is not allowed in your signature.
A links directory could have a short description available where the customers got a slight idea of what to expect on the site.

[noppid]

Because anything but a link to your site (ie any promotional/advertising text) is not allowed in your signature.
A links directory could have a short description available where the customers got a slight idea of what to expect on the site.

Or coder could release lite versions of their paid vBulletin add in software. Working with the mods here, and let me tell ya I don't like everything they say, I have been able to see the point of the site and will be taking advantge of the rules to the benefit of the vBulletin community. I in return will see benefits if I deserve it.

The way things work, works! Use it properly and there is no need for change here!

[The Geek]

And let's be honest, it is more what you and the other commercial authors are looking for than what the customers want. They don't seem to have any problems finding your commercial hacks now, right?


Actually, I'm speaking from experience in purchasing commercial scripts for vB. Currently - its a freaking nightmare - pot luck party. There is stuff I stumbled over and thought - crap, I could have done with that yonks ago. There have also been times that I have purchased a script only to find better, cheaper options out there later (again by accident).

A directory or whatever would have at least helped while supporting professional 3rd party developers for vBulletin. To me, thats a win win situation.

I don't profess to say it would be wine and roses - however I do profess that .org isn't right now. Maybe looking optimistically for a solution would grow and evolve the community, hell - if not then it could always be removed and you could make a 'I told you so thread'. ;)

As for only the commercial coders wanting it - I think you'll find thats not even close to the case. I'm sure all commercial coders DO support it - however since coders here are the minority - professional coders are the minority of that minority. Personally, I just think many realize that it would be a benefit. It would have made interesting reading making the poll public. I do think that the majority of those against it are those that do not contribute to the community.

[trackpads]

Actually, I'm speaking from experience in purchasing commercial scripts for vB. Currently - its a freaking nightmare - pot luck party. There is stuff I stumbled over and thought - crap, I could have done with that yonks ago.

ditto on this. It is sad that you can go to postnuke.com and find commercial addons for postnuke but nothing here for VB. and VB is commercial software! the reason i went to commercial software was the service and support of the vb community, it drives me made that some odd-hatered of commercial coding exists here when the site is dedicated to support commercial software...

[noppid]

ditto on this. It is sad that you can go to postnuke.com and find commercial addons for postnuke but nothing here for VB. and VB is commercial software! the reason i went to commercial software was the service and support of the vb community, it drives me made that some odd-hatered of commercial coding exists here when the site is dedicated to support commercial software...

vBulletin supports it's commercial interest just fine.

What your post comes down to is that you are annoyed that certain products don't have lite versions that make it within the rules to post here and promote the paid version.

Why should vBulletin let us ride their backs?

[MPDev]

Why should vBulletin let us ride their backs?

Because the members have asked for it?

[trackpads]

vBulletin supports it's commercial interest just fine.

What your post comes down to is that you are annoyed that certain products don't have lite versions that make it within the rules to post here and promote the paid version.

Why should vBulletin let us ride their backs?

Why shouldnt it? It would also increase revenue, otherwise giants like microsoft wouldnt be doing it either. They are, as are most other large web projects that I have mentioned, postnuke etc etc.

[The Geek]

What your post comes down to is that you are annoyed that certain products don't have lite versions that make it within the rules to post here and promote the paid version.

People are expressing that its difficult to locate anything for vB that isn't a hobby project. Since vB is a commercial product, one would naturally anticipate that Jelsoft would support commercial 3rd party developers. Right now, it doesnt. They are given the banishment treatment. Hopefully that will change soon.

I mean, geez - its not like anyone is forcing you to use it if you don't want to.

[noppid]

People are expressing that its difficult to locate anything for vB that isn't a hobby project. Since vB is a commercial product, one would naturally anticipate that Jelsoft would support commercial 3rd party developers. Right now, it doesnt. They are given the banishment treatment. Hopefully that will change soon.

I mean, geez - its not like anyone is forcing you to use it if you don't want to.

I never said I wouldn't use it. What I said is that this place works great the way it is.

Many others have expressed how this addition to this forum would change this forum. The change can't be denied.

I think the best suggestion, and this is up to vB not me, would be a seperate site completely for such advertising. And honestly, I can't see it being a paid resource worth managing.

[Talisman]

I never said I wouldn't use it. What I said is that this place works great the way it is.

Many others have expressed how this addition to this forum would change this forum. The change can't be denied.

I think the best suggestion, and this is up to vB not me, would be a seperate site completely for such advertising. And honestly, I can't see it being a paid resource worth managing.

Exactly. I'll be right there to support commercial hacks, too... I don't mind paying for premium work if it's something I really need/want for my site. Just set that up somewhere other than vBulletin.org.

I imagine, if Jelsoft really wants to support commercial add-ons, they could set up a referral page or index or advertiser's marketplace as a "paid" community feature.... at their own vBulletin.com website. It just doesn't belong here. They could even charge commercial hackers a nominal fee for the opportunity to buy an advertisement/listing there.

[SupremeWeapon]

the reason i went to commercial software was the service and support of the vb community, it drives me made that some odd-hatered of commercial coding exists here when the site is dedicated to support commercial software..

paying 100+$ for software and then turn around and pay more for files with txt that take less then a week to build is actually ludicris. nw for the hacks that people actually take there time on and do alot to like the rpg hackm it woul dbe worth it. The you have the fact where MOST paid hacks/plugin authors promise unlimited free upgrades for new versions of VB but then dissapear after a few vb versions are released. To me thats a VERY bad bussiness sense, and it stop people from ever trusting in paid hacks/plugin again.

for org to go into paid for that it would really strain community relationships when authors go MIA and stop supporting therehacks/plugins when they promised it and free lifetime upgrading and what not.


i know i havent been here in a while, and its mainly because i was one of the ones on the short end of the stick for a paid hack... its not fun

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Sorry to say, but you should also blame yourself a bit. If you are paying an individual for unlimited/lifetime support, you know that this will never happen. No individual can keep up that promise, it just takes some common sense to realize that.

Make good agreements with an individual if you buy something. You could for example agree on a shorter period of support (reasonable, for a reasonable price) and also put in writing what can/should happen if the coder ever stop his work. You could for example agree that if coder is missing for more then 2 month, you are free to let someone else to take over, but i guess you can think of 100 constructions.

About the prize of payed work compaired to full vBulletin: people always tend to forget that Jelsoft sells 10,000ths copies of vB and like that can keep the costs of 1 license low. If you order a custom hack, all the work done must be paid by 1 customer: You! If you are lucky you want something that can be sold more, maybe 5 times to reduce the costs for 1 license. If you are really lucky then it could be sold 100 times, spreading he costs.

So it is not a real surprise some hacks cost more then vB itself.

[SupremeWeapon]

If gave a lifetime commitement to keeping them upgraded for paying customers i would do just that. Your word is your bond and your word is what makes you a man (or a woman)

[Revan]

Or coder could release lite versions of their paid vBulletin add in software.Do you have any idea how much work is involved in releasing a lite version?
Even with a highly revised and structurised coding style, picking out the advanced features (not like just adding "if (!is_paid())") takes time that very well could be spent on developing new features, fixing bugs or just improve the coding.
Do you think Jelsoft stopped releasing vB Lite because they felt like being nasty towards the people wanting an extended preview? I wasn't here for when this change happened but I have enough common sense to figure out that this was not the case. They felt their developers time could be spent on the main product.
paying 100+$ for software and then turn around and pay more for files with txt that take less then a week to build is actually ludicris. nw for the hacks that people actually take there time on and do alot to like the rpg hackm it woul dbe worth it. Why thank you for that assessment :)
The you have the fact where MOST paid hacks/plugin authors promise unlimited free upgrades for new versions of VB but then dissapear after a few vb versions are released. To me thats a VERY bad bussiness sense, and it stop people from ever trusting in paid hacks/plugin again.Unless you are referring to actual text on paid sites, I can't say Ive ever encountered anyone promising unlimited support. That's like saying they will live forever and always develop that script, which obviously is impossible. So yeah, if such a promise exists anywhere then I concur with Marco.
for org to go into paid for that it would really strain community relationships when authors go MIA and stop supporting therehacks/plugins when they promised it and free lifetime upgrading and what not.That's why we are discussing a directory of off-sites, so vBulletin.org staff could simply remove a site should the coder go MIA or decide to no longer support his hack. vB.org would not handle money transactions or be in any other way legally involved.
i know i havent been here in a while, and its mainly because i was one of the ones on the short end of the stick for a paid hack... its not funSorry to hear that mate, Ive been short-sticked as a coder once too so I know how ya feel.

[Jenta]

After all the hooplia with John's arcade pay option it only reinforces why commercial products would not fit in here very well....even if it's just a links directory.

For the sake of throwing this out. How about this...
You wan't your product listed here? End users would get a 25% discount if they come from vb.org. You are going to sell more so I don't see this as a problem.

[Boofo]

After all the hooplia with John's arcade pay option it only reinforces why commercial products would not fit in here very well....even if it's just a links directory.

For the sake of throwing this out. How about this...
You wan't your product listed here? End users would get a 25% discount if they come from vb.org. You are going to sell more so I don't see this as a problem.

Sorry, that won't solve anything. That will just allow them to raise their prices by 30 percent to offset the discount. ;)

[noppid]

1) Do you have any idea how much work is involved in releasing a lite version?

2)Even with a highly revised and structurised coding style, picking out the advanced features (not like just adding "if (!is_paid())") takes time that very well could be spent on developing new features, fixing bugs or just improve the coding.

3)Do you think Jelsoft stopped releasing vB Lite because they felt like being nasty towards the people wanting an extended preview? I wasn't here for when this change happened but I have enough common sense to figure out that this was not the case. They felt their developers time could be spent on the main product.
Why thank you for that assessment :)

4)Unless you are referring to actual text on paid sites, I can't say Ive ever encountered anyone promising unlimited support. That's like saying they will live forever and always develop that script, which obviously is impossible. So yeah, if such a promise exists anywhere then I concur with Marco.
That's why we are discussing a directory of off-sites, so vBulletin.org staff could simply remove a site should the coder go MIA or decide to no longer support his hack. vB.org would not handle money transactions or be in any other way legally involved.

5)Sorry to hear that mate, Ive been short-sticked as a coder once too so I know how ya feel.

1) Are you serious?

2) I'm sorry you coundn't pull it off.

3) I have no idea nor care about vB Lite. I'm working with what is available now and adjust with the changes as necessary. It's called coding.

4) Forever? LOL, just make a product that works and the most support your users will need is an occasional installation question due to being new to vBulletin.

5) Sorry to hear that mate.

Apathetic posts like this are the only thing keeping this thread alive. It's not Jelsofts job to prop us up. It's our job to perform the skills we claim to have and adjust our game as necessasry to feed ourselves.

[The Geek]

Actually noppid, I have to agree with him on the first 3 points. I can only assume that one major factor in doing away with a LITE version of vB was that it is a nightmare controlling code changes in various projects.

I am not saying that it can not be done - however that would be dependant on the project and regardless - it is time that is often better spent working on new features or new projects.

[Boofo]

Actually noppid, I have to agree with him on the first 3 points. I can only assume that one major factor in doing away with a LITE version of vB was that it is a nightmare controlling code changes in various projects.

I am not saying that it can not be done - however that would be dependant on the project and regardless - it is time that is often better spent working on new features or new projects.

If you're not willing to compromise, how can you expect for anything to happen?

[noppid]

Actually noppid, I have to agree with him on the first 3 points. I can only assume that one major factor in doing away with a LITE version of vB was that it is a nightmare controlling code changes in various projects.

I am not saying that it can not be done - however that would be dependant on the project and regardless - it is time that is often better spent working on new features or new projects.


Why are we even talking about an extinct project?

We're talking about vBulletin hacks and there being a lite free version of those hacks at vBulletin.org if you want to play here in the "free" world for promotional purposes of the paid version.

Currently that method works well. I'm not saying it's perfect, we all have our opinions but none of them matter anyway.

As far as managing a lite version, yep, it's work. But nothing ventured, nothing gained. There's a bigger pie out there though my friend. ;)

[utw-Mephisto]

here are my $0.02 :

Some people just run sites as hobby and other people as serious projects.

My site is in between. It started as hobby but it is getting serious next year. So some functions I need / want are only available as hacks / plugins .

I THINK the reason he is asking the first place : PAID hacks MUST be working / bug free etc.

So some people (like me) wouldn't have any problems to pay a few bucks for a script since I can be sure it is working straight away .. at least in most of the cases ..

Use as example vbulletin and phpbb or wbb .... I rather pay $160 but I am almost assured that the script is working ... don't even get me started with all the flaws phpbb has.

Some people writing scripts and don't support them (I can give you at least 20 examples from vb.org) because "They are working for me" ...

So IMHO - it is a nice idea ... See he German sister site of vborg ... they have also a paid section (public joinable usergroup to see that forum) - great stuff - honestly ..

[amykhar]

Mephisto has one thing very right. This is not the ideal place for business or professional sites to get modifications because this is a hobby site. But, because Jelsoft has made it into a modification download site instead of a coding community, it needs to transition somewhat to present people with professional solutions. I don't think forums for paid stuff is the answer. I don't think advertising in sig lines is the answer. I think doing things the way TAZ does with banner ads is the way it should be done. Heck, run google adsense banners and let people buy adwords targetted at stuff that would be here, if nothing else.

Amy

[MJM]

How many paid/commercial vB add-ons are there currently?

- Is there anywhere I can see a list?

- Is it permissible for someone to post a list at this site?

[Boofo]

How many paid/commercial vB add-ons are there currently?

- Is there anywhere I can see a list?

- Is it permissible for someone to post a list at this site?

A few. No and No.

[Blam Forumz]

Sure, why not.

[Robert Basil]

I am one of the few people here who are lucky enough run a VB based website for my full time job.

I would love to see a paid hacks section so I do not have to visit a bunch of different forums for all of the free and paid hacks I have installed.

[Talisman]

I am one of the few people here who are lucky enough run a VB based website for my full time job.

I would love to see a paid hacks section so I do not have to visit a bunch of different forums for all of the free and paid hacks I have installed.

Yes, that probably would be nice for you, Pocketbike. But for most everyone else here, we don't have a client we can bill who'll pay our expenses.

[sitka]

where is the official jelsoft vbulletin lite?

[Robert Basil]

Yes, that probably would be nice for you, Pocketbike. But for most everyone else here, we don't have a client we can bill who'll pay our expenses.

My salary is paid for by my advertisers.

where is the official jelsoft vbulletin lite?

I don't think it is available anymore. Someone here might have an archived copy though. Keep in mind it is a very old and crippled version.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by MJM
How many paid/commercial vB add-ons are there currently?

- Is there anywhere I can see a list?

- Is it permissible for someone to post a list at this site?

Boofo replied ...
A few. No and No.

-------
Okay, then is it permissible for someone to start a New Thread and ASK ...

What other commercial add-ons are available for vB?
(PLEASE no reviews - just the product name / brief description and link)

The reason I'm asking is that it appears people can ask about add-ons of a specific use.

If you say Yes ... please someone else post it.
I have no problems questioning authority but I don't want to be the leader of the pack. :eek:

[The Geek]

If you're not willing to compromise, how can you expect for anything to happen?

eh? You got me there. I could have sworn I have been trying to discuss lots of various options while you have been persistantly dead pan on the discussion. In fact, the post you are talking about has bugger all about compromising - I was using freaking vb as an example of why LITE version dont always work.

The irony is killing me :D Its got to be at least tickling you?

[Boofo]

Originally Posted by MJM
How many paid/commercial vB add-ons are there currently?

- Is there anywhere I can see a list?

- Is it permissible for someone to post a list at this site?

Boofo replied ...
A few. No and No.

-------
Okay, then is it permissible for someone to start a New Thread and ASK ...

What other commercial add-ons are available for vB?
(PLEASE no reviews - just the product name / brief description and link)

The reason I'm asking is that it appears people can ask about add-ons of a specific use.

If you say Yes ... please someone else post it.
I have no problems questioning authority but I don't want to be the leader of the pack. :eek:

Until something is decided for definate, this would only be inviting trouble and not helping your cause at all. ;)

[noppid]

eh? You got me there. I could have sworn I have been trying to discuss lots of various options while you have been persistantly dead pan on the discussion. In fact, the post you are talking about has bugger all about compromising - I was using freaking vb as an example of why LITE version dont always work.

The irony is killing me :D Its got to be at least tickling you?

Apples and oranges.

vB lite Vs vBulletin in not even close to an add in. The back end is already there.

Huge difference.

Besides, I'd bet more service providers then code writers would use the service if available.

[Boofo]

eh? You got me there. I could have sworn I have been trying to discuss lots of various options while you have been persistantly dead pan on the discussion. In fact, the post you are talking about has bugger all about compromising - I was using freaking vb as an example of why LITE version dont always work.

The irony is killing me :D Its got to be at least tickling you?

I have to admit, you letting your defenses down and me slipping in once in a while does kindof feel ironic, don't it? LOL

The one post that you DON'T compromise in, is the one that seems to stand out. Consistency, my friend. ;)

[The Geek]

I have to admit, you letting your defenses down and me slipping in once in a while does kindof feel ironic, don't it? LOL

The one post that you DON'T compromise in, is the one that seems to stand out. Consistency, my friend. ;)

I'm utterly and butterly intrigued. What post :D ?

Actually - on second thought your entire post is pure Soduko to me ;)

Apples = commerical scripts
Oranges = LITE scripts.

Apples & Oranges is very true :)

[noppid]

I'm utterly and butterly intrigued. What post :D ?

Actually - on second thought your entire post is pure Soduko to me ;)

Apples = commerical scripts
Oranges = LITE scripts.

Apples & Oranges is very true :)

You are still trying to define add ins as applications it seems to me without actually saying it. Perception is way more powerful then...

Bottom line, the larger percentage of vB add ins are not applications at all IMO, they require vBulletin. I know there are exceptions, but they certainly are the minority.

[The Geek]

Where do you stop then?

vB requires MySQL, etc...

I know thats just getting silly. Its just my point is that - well, its irrelevant. Why is it worth less and treated differently? At the end of the day someone has had to work to do it. That shouldn't make it any less valuable if it brings functionality to the user.

Anyhooo - moot point and all. We have differing views on the plausibility of creating and managing LITE versions.
Ive done it - it sucks. I am sure there are many instances when it would be no big deal, but I'm telling you - keeping code in 2 differing systems is a nightmare. I used vb lite as an example. I'm sure there were other reasons behind killing the project - however I can my boys Buzz Lightyear that maintaining 2 differing versions was a key factor as it can be more time consuming and mentally draining than not.

Regardless - no big deal. Just 2 different views on a subject :)

[noppid]

Where do you stop then?

vB requires MySQL, etc...

I know thats just getting silly. Its just my point is that - well, its irrelevant. Why is it worth less and treated differently? At the end of the day someone has had to work to do it. That shouldn't make it any less valuable if it brings functionality to the user.

Anyhooo - moot point and all. We have differing views on the plausibility of creating and managing LITE versions.
Ive done it - it sucks. I am sure there are many instances when it would be no big deal, but I'm telling you - keeping code in 2 differing systems is a nightmare. I used vb lite as an example. I'm sure there were other reasons behind killing the project - however I can my boys Buzz Lightyear that maintaining 2 differing versions was a key factor as it can be more time consuming and mentally draining than not.

Regardless - no big deal. Just 2 different views on a subject :)


No doubt, but a good civil debate is heathy.

It's work no matter how ya slice it all the way around. Coding, marketing and support.

Buy your marketing and work your code. But I don't think we're gonna get to buy anything here. ;)

Regards

[Boofo]

I'm utterly and butterly intrigued. What post :D ?

Actually - on second thought your entire post is pure Soduko to me ;)

Apples = commerical scripts
Oranges = LITE scripts.

Apples & Oranges is very true :)

Forget it. You are too far on the other side of the fence to meet anyone half way. You're way is right and everone else's is wrong, no matter what logical and sensible reasoning that is put forth. There is no way you can fully understand the problems something like this would cause here, unless you have had to deal with it on a daily basis like we have. You are looking at it with blinders on, my friend. Blinders with dollar signs on them.

[Regs]

Pot meet Kettle.

Kettle meet Pot.

:rolleyes:

[MRGTB]

Pot meet Kettle.

Kettle meet Pot.

:rolleyes:

both are black :)

[cinq]

- Is there anywhere I can see a list?

Actually, yes.

[Boofo]

Pot meet Kettle.

Kettle meet Pot.

:rolleyes:

Cute.

[Boofo]

both are black :)

That's usually what that means. ;)

[The Geek]

Forget it. You are too far on the other side of the fence to meet anyone half way. You're way is right and everone else's is wrong, no matter what logical and sensible reasoning that is put forth. There is no way you can fully understand the problems something like this would cause here, unless you have had to deal with it on a daily basis like we have. You are looking at it with blinders on, my friend. Blinders with dollar signs on them.

Boofo, I am game to discuss lots of different possibilities (and have been doing so) to give the community what it is asking for while on the other hand you shout fire and brimstone at the thought of doing something different.

No I can not fully understand the problems 'this' would cause around here. In fact - no one would know if it would even cause any problems (reminds be of a certain y2k bug scenario). All I know is that a community should not be driven by a moderator on a mission but rather the community and customers that make up the site as a whole.

Furthermore - you can put your tar away as I'm over getting painted with it. I personally could give a toss about making money off of my modifications (however it is nice to offset some of my costs). I don't make up the majority of this poll, however I am clearly in the camp I am in for the simple reason that it makes sense to most.

I may not be the sparkliest kettle on the stove, but I make a damn fine cup of Joe ;)

[MJM]

Unfortunately this Poll suggests that voters are emphatically on the far left or far right of this issue, with no provision provided for compromise.
Had it been a Yes / No / Maybe Poll, with a provision to change vote during Poll discussion session, there may have been less # of radical Y/N votes and a greater majority in the Maybe's leading to a more positive discussion towards finding a compromise acceptable by a large majority.

It is in everyones interest to find an amicable arrangement between vB/management, the customer and the coder needs.

Paraphrase The Geek ...
"a community Poll should not be driven by a moderator on a mission but rather the community and customers that make up the site as a whole".

... unless the Poll has been initiated by a mod on a mission.

This thing about running Polls alongside ongoing discussion has been very interesting. Any Polls 101/tipsN tricks info out there?

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Don't forget that the Staff are volunteers, and beside being a moderator, tehy are also member/user/coder here. You should also be able to see the difference between a personal opinion and a stand taken as a Staff member. Boofy is clearly stating a personal opinion in this thread.

/me Still got a bag full of feathers, wonder if someone know a good use for it.

[Boofo]

Thank you, Marco. Is is ONLY an opinion and nothing more. Why should it be labeled as anything else? Voicing an opinion and being on a mission are 2 totally different concepts.

"If you prick the Staff, do they not bleed?" (I've always wanted to say that somewhere. ;))

Put the bag away, Marco, I'm done with this now as participating in this debate any longer will only serve to fuel the "Staff is on a mission" scenario as that is their last line of defense now.

[The Geek]

Oh the drama! I think its easily recognized for what it was. Happily, we can now get back to constructive discussion :P

Like at what stage do we recognize that a pretty healthy majority want a to discuss a solution that will work for the majority while respecting the wishes of the minority? Furthermore, has there been any further progress on ideas from Jelsoft in this department. Are they waiting for the poll to close before deciding?

Just curious.

[noppid]

Like at what stage do we recognize that a pretty healthy majority want a to discuss a solution that will work for the majority while respecting the wishes of the minority? Furthermore, has there been any further progress on ideas from Jelsoft in this department. Are they waiting for the poll to close before deciding?

Just curious.

We?

I didn't know there was a we that included the members of vBulletin.org that makes decisions for Jelsoft?

Healthy majority?

One third of one percent of the members voted.

Your failure to deal if facts is clouding your assessment of this undoubtly.

[GoTTi]

woops. i wanted to vote yes.

[Chris M]

This poll has no reflection or standing on the decision - It is not endorsed by us, nor does it have an acceptable measure of the feelings of everyone...

A few coders disagree, a few agree - A few members disagree, a few agree - From where I stand it looks exactly like whatever happens one camp won't be happy while another will...

And I'm sorry, but when you signed up to this site, used it's forums, it's free advice and free code for your own forums and personal development, you accepted and abided by the rules at the time, which are still what they are today...

Regardless of the outcome, unless a very large percentage are totally for it, I believe we should stick by what we know and if you don't like it, well, you agreed that was the way it would be when you joined so by doing so, you can either accept it or leave...

And for the record, this is my personal opinion not that of the Staff or Jelsoft...

Chris

[The Geek]

Sorry cats, I thought we were having a discussion for a reason here.

I guess not, point taken & time wasted.

As a customer of Jelsoft and third party developer, I mistakenly thought I had a voice (as I'm sure the majority did) but clearly .org is staying where the minority want. How silly was I?

pffft.

[Regs]

Regardless of the outcome, unless a very large percentage are totally for it, I believe we should stick by what we know and if you don't like it, well, you agreed that was the way it would be when you joined so by doing so, you can either accept it or leave...Can we start a poll then whether or not to close the Site Feedback forums?

The staff here says one day they are discussing it behind the scenes. Then on a following day, the majority of them are posting how bad and evil change would be.

But hey, it is all personal opinion.

Baaaaa. Baaaaa.

As a staff member, you guys sometimes need to recognise that you need to keep your personal opinions in check. That is the nature of the beast. Some have unfairly started to twist others words (TG) and derail any semblence of a healthy discussion.

[lsgworldl]

yes no yes no I mean yes

[Brad]

No one said we were not discussing it still... Sometimes people need to realize staff members have their own opinions about things and that does not automaticly mean it's the opinion of the entire staff.

They are voicing their opinions so you guys can discuss them, you may not agree with them but no one said you had to.

So my advice to you all is to get back on topic and keep it clean.