Lossless Images...

[Wayne Luke]

So I am working with a new book publisher. They want to make micro-sites for all of their books. I am not a graphics designer and I do not have Photoshop. I do not wish to buy Photoshop. However the publisher will need to forward me images of book covers and authors for resizing and placing on the websites as needed. Currently they are using JPEG but I am not sure that is the best method. Most images they send my are in excess of 4000 X 3000 pixels.

What is the best cross-platform lossless image format supported by the majority of graphics applications? I am thinking TIF myself but wanted to hear other ideas. I primarily use Paint Shop Pro but have not upgraded to version 10 after it was bought by Corel. When I do so, PSDs would be viable but it doesn't support all features. Spending $900.00 for Photoshop is not an option.

[smacklan]

You can get Photoshop CS2 for under $200 on ebay...legally ;)

[Wayne Luke]

Hmmm.. Have tried Photoshop a couple a time on free trials and it was one of the most confusing pieces of software I have ever seen. Do I really need to spend $200 dollars just to resize images?

[Jedi Blaze]

What about (dare I say) MS Paint? Using the sketch & skew option, I resize all my photographs and images perfeclty. >.>

Or you could always go with Macromedia Fireworks...or if you're on Linux, GIMP is the way to go.

[ConqSoft]

Paint Shop Pro from www.jasc.com is what I use. Works great and at a great price.

[Xenon]

i second PSP

very good programm, which can convert between a lot of formats.

and to answer the other question. JPEG2000 would be a good format, but not every program can handle these yet, but the bigger ones can.

[Wayne Luke]

I have Paint Shop Pro (which is actually owned by Corel now)... An application to use really wasn't the question.

I am specifically asking about which Lossless file formet would be best for subsequent image manipulation. I can have them save in Lossless JPEG (4300 X 3200 image is ~26 MB) or TIFF (same image is ~30MB).. I don't know how large PSD at that resolution is. These are not Layered images and they do not need to be. I do not need to edit the image except for cropping, resizing and optimizing. With Paint Shop Pro, I can take the same Lossless JPEG and save it with relative clarity at the sizes I needed...

For example, look at www.returnofwhitebuffalo.com, both the painting in the header and the book cover are two such images that I was given at large resolutions. Both came from 25 MB files or so and I was able to reduce them significantly with Paintshop Pro.

So the question at hand is will I get better results from an image format other than Lossless JPEG? File size doesn't matter. All file exchanges are done on Rewriteable CDs and I only get a few images at a time, around a dozen or so.


p.s. Microsoft Paint will not load these files. It doesn't understand Lossless JPEG.

[ChrisLM2001]

I have Paint Shop Pro (which is actually owned by Corel now)... An application to use really wasn't the question.

I am specifically asking about which Lossless file formet would be best for subsequent image manipulation. I can have them save in Lossless JPEG (4300 X 3200 image is ~26 MB) or TIFF (same image is ~30MB).. I don't know how large PSD at that resolution is. These are not Layered images and they do not need to be. I do not need to edit the image except for cropping, resizing and optimizing. With Paint Shop Pro, I can take the same Lossless JPEG and save it with relative clarity at the sizes I needed...

For example, look at www.returnofwhitebuffalo.com, both the painting in the header and the book cover are two such images that I was given at large resolutions. Both came from 25 MB files or so and I was able to reduce them significantly with Paintshop Pro.

So the question at hand is will I get better results from an image format other than Lossless JPEG? File size doesn't matter. All file exchanges are done on Rewriteable CDs and I only get a few images at a time, around a dozen or so.


p.s. Microsoft Paint will not load these files. It doesn't understand Lossless JPEG.

TIFF isn't anywhere near being the best graphic format (especially for merged images).

Since it's already in conventional JPEG (which isn't lossless even at 100%) converting it to another format is useless, the image quality is already destroyed. Either start with a lossless format, or just stick with what you have.

Chris

[Wayne Luke]

Since it's already in conventional JPEG (which isn't lossless even at 100%) converting it to another format is useless, the image quality is already destroyed. Either start with a lossless format, or just stick with what you have.


These are not merged images. They are 300 DPI scans of commercial lithograph artwork. None of the work except for resizing occurs on a computer. The originals are handpainted.

I'll just stick with Lossless JPEG format (which is different than standard JPEG at 100%). It seems the only a few programs support it and Photoshop isn't one of them. Paint Shop Pro supports it though.


There's a great deal of confusion on this subject, which is not surprising
because there are several different compression methods all known as "JPEG".
The commonly used method is "baseline JPEG" (or its variant "progressive
JPEG"). The same ISO standard also defines a very different method called
"lossless JPEG". And if that's not confusing enough, a new lossless
standard called "JPEG-LS" is about to hit the streets.

When I say "lossless", I mean mathematically lossless: a lossless
compression algorithm is one that guarantees its decompressed output is
bit-for-bit identical to the original input. This is a much stronger claim
than "visually indistinguishable from the original". Baseline JPEG can
reach visual indistinguishability for most photo-like images, but it can
never be truly lossless.

Lossless JPEG is a completely different method that really is lossless.
However, it doesn't compress nearly as well as baseline JPEG; it typically
can compress full-color data by around 2:1. And lossless JPEG works well
only on continuous-tone images. It does not provide useful compression of
palette-color images or low-bit-depth images.

Lossless JPEG has never been popular --- in fact, no common applications
support it --- and it is now largely obsolete. (For example, the new PNG
standard outcompresses lossless JPEG on most images.) Recognizing this,
the ISO JPEG committee recently finished an all-new lossless compression
standard called JPEG-LS (you may have also heard of it under the name LOCO).
JPEG-LS gives better compression than original lossless JPEG, but still
nowhere near what you can get with a lossy method. It's anybody's guess
whether this new standard will achieve any popularity.

It's worth repeating that cranking a regular JPEG implementation up to its
maximum quality setting *does not* get you lossless storage; even at the
highest possible quality setting, baseline JPEG is lossy because it is
subject to roundoff errors in various calculations. Roundoff errors alone
are nearly always too small to be seen, but they will accumulate if you put
the image through multiple cycles of compression (see section 10).

Many implementations won't even let you get to the maximum possible setting,
because it's such an inefficient way to use regular JPEG. With the IJG JPEG
software, for example, you have to not only select "quality 100" but also
turn off chroma downsampling to minimize loss of information. The resulting
files are far larger and of only fractionally better quality than files
generated at more reasonable settings. And they're still slightly lossy!
If you really need lossless storage, don't try to approximate it with


regular JPEG.

[MRGTB]

Hmmm.. Have tried Photoshop a couple a time on free trials and it was one of the most confusing pieces of software I have ever seen. Do I really need to spend $200 dollars just to resize images?

Luke I use both Photoshop CS and Paintshop Pro 8. You really need to learn Adobe Photoshop. Its simply the best by far of the two. Paintshop Pro is not even in the same league. There are many guides out there that will get you going in adobe photoshop fast. I've used it for over 4 years now.

I was going to say PSD also, but all layers would have to be flattened or merged in Photoshop before saving for Paintshop Pro to open the PSD correctly.

[Wayne Luke]

You give me the $600 dollars to buy a new copy of Photoshop and I will convert. I am not buying software on eBay because that place is full of thieves and scam artists and I don't want to buy a counterfeit copy. I am not a graphics designer and don't intend to become a graphics designer so the investment isn't worth it to me.

From what I understand Photoshop doesn't understand the Lossless JPEG format. Don't really care about layers. They are useless to me in this respect so that isn't even a selling point.

Again it isn't about software really. Who cares what software is used. I am specifically asking about file formats for uncompressed/lossless large DPI images.

[MRGTB]

You give me the $600 dollars to buy a new copy of Photoshop and I will convert. I am not buying software on eBay because that place is full of thieves and scam artists and I don't want to buy a counterfeit copy. I am not a graphics designer and don't intend to become a graphics designer so the investment isn't worth it to me.

From what I understand Photoshop doesn't understand the Lossless JPEG format. Don't really care about layers. They are useless to me in this respect so that isn't even a selling point.

Again it isn't about software really. Who cares what software is used. I am specifically asking about file formats for uncompressed/lossless large DPI images.

In that case TIFF is the highest quality. And then Winrar the image.

[Invision Zone]

Personally I would suggest png files

[Andreas]

1) Photoshop is second to none for professional design/photo work.
Though it IS complex, expensive and has a steep learning curve
2) PSP is a nice software and I've been using it for a long time. For SoHo/Hobby stuff it does more than actually needed
3) TIFF is the format of choice for high-resolution, losless image compression